WEBVTT 00:00:37.040 --> 00:00:39.600 Welcome to the Stone Choir Podcast. 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:40.480 I am Corey J. 00:00:40.720 --> 00:00:42.160 Mahler. And I'm 00:00:42.160 --> 00:00:45.040 still Wo. 00:00:45.040 --> 00:00:49.440 On today's Stone Choir we're going to be discussing the Reformation. 00:00:49.440 --> 00:00:54.240 As many of you probably know, next week is the Reformation anniversary 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:59.600 of what is observed as Reformation Day, also known as Halloween or 00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:01.520 All Hallows Eve. 00:01:01.680 --> 00:01:06.720 The recognized first Reformation Day, the day that's being commemorated is of 00:01:06.720 --> 00:01:12.320 course Martin Luther nailing the ninety five Theses in fifteen seventeen. 00:01:12.320 --> 00:01:15.840 And that has been marked as the beginning of what became the 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:20.400 Reformation. Obviously at the time Luther didn't know quite what a firestorm 00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:23.440 he was going to be lighting by posting that, and we'll talk 00:01:23.440 --> 00:01:25.600 about that in a little bit. 00:01:25.600 --> 00:01:29.360 Today's discussion is going to be mostly historical. 00:01:29.360 --> 00:01:34.880 Uh basically we want to The Reformation and what left into it 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:36.720 and what came out of it. 00:01:36.720 --> 00:01:40.320 The books that have been written could easily fill multiple libraries, as 00:01:40.320 --> 00:01:42.400 Corey said before we started recording. 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:46.880 They're men who have spent their entire lives dedicated to studying a 00:01:46.880 --> 00:01:49.280 small portion of the history of this. 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.920 So in a couple hour podcast we're only gonna barely even scratch 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:56.320 the surface on just the high notes. 00:01:56.320 --> 00:01:57.120 The specific 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:01.680 overarching theme that I hope we can tease out of this and 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:06.480 the second reason that we're doing a Reformation episode this particular week 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:10.560 is that this is also the one-year anniversary of Stone Choir getting 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:14.560 started. Uh, a year ago, last week was the first episode that 00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:15.760 we dropped. 00:02:15.760 --> 00:02:19.920 And when we had decided that we wanted to begin doing a 00:02:19.920 --> 00:02:23.120 podcast together, Corey and I talked about talked about, you know, kind 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:26.320 of the the reasons for it and what we we we hope 00:02:26.320 --> 00:02:27.920 to accomplish. 00:02:27.920 --> 00:02:31.120 And one of the things we'll be talking about towards the end 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:35.360 that we wanted to do was not to be an overtly Lutheran 00:02:35.360 --> 00:02:37.360 podcast just for Lutherans. 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:39.360 Like this isn't all about Luther. 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:41.200 This isn't all about Lutheran doctrine. 00:02:41.200 --> 00:02:44.640 We do talk about it sometimes, and as we've said before, when 00:02:44.880 --> 00:02:49.600 we are discussing something that we know Lutherans believe one thing and 00:02:49.600 --> 00:02:51.120 others believe something different. 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:53.760 We try to lay that out clearly and say like, here's the 00:02:53.760 --> 00:02:57.520 case for why Lutherans have historically believed this thing, and then you 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:00.640 know, maybe here's why you guys believe this other thing. 00:03:00.720 --> 00:03:03.440 One of the things that we uh often talk about is that 00:03:03.600 --> 00:03:07.520 it's okay for grown men to say we disagree or I think 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:09.360 you're wrong and you think I'm wrong. 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:11.440 That's a starting place for a discussion. 00:03:11.440 --> 00:03:13.760 It doesn't mean to need to be a starting place for finger 00:03:13.760 --> 00:03:17.600 pointing or whining or pouting or name calling. 00:03:17.600 --> 00:03:20.640 Logically, at least one of us has to be wrong. 00:03:20.640 --> 00:03:22.400 Maybe both of us are wrong. 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:28.160 So for one denomination to say another denomination is wrong about something 00:03:28.720 --> 00:03:32.240 can in some cases be the beginning of a fruitful discussion. 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:34.720 Now in the case of many of the things that went into 00:03:34.720 --> 00:03:38.480 and then came out of the Reformation, there hasn't really been much 00:03:38.880 --> 00:03:43.440 in the way of new disputes among us for five centuries. 00:03:43.440 --> 00:03:48.480 Like pretty much everything important got hammered out in the 16th century. 00:03:48.480 --> 00:03:48.800 So 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:53.040 the second part of the episode, the latter portion, is going to 00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:58.080 be discussing the ecumenical nature of the audience of Stone Choir. 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:03.040 How, what it means that we have Methodists and Baptists and Lutherans 00:04:03.200 --> 00:04:08.480 and Reform guys and Presbyterians and Roman Catholics all listening to the 00:04:08.480 --> 00:04:09.360 same podcast. 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:13.920 And also, incidentally, a lot of people who have either never had 00:04:13.920 --> 00:04:17.440 any church home or had left church a long time ago found 00:04:17.440 --> 00:04:21.920 Stone Choir and aldost almost immediately start going back to church. 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:26.160 The fact that we can all find any common ground on any 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:30.560 of these issues is itself interesting, and that's one of the reasons 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:33.120 we want to do this episode is to talk about how is 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:36.160 it that we can agree on this stuff when we disagree on 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:37.760 so many other things. 00:04:37.760 --> 00:04:42.720 So is we lay the historical framework for the disagreements in the 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:47.440 past and how they shaped the various denominations today. 00:04:47.440 --> 00:04:52.000 I want to do it specifically in view of the fact that 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:55.360 we can still have agreement on things today means that there's still 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:58.800 common ground common ground among us, even among you know Lutherans and 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:04.000 Roman Catholics who have basically no shared priors apart from Scripture. 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:07.280 That'll be part of what we talk about down the road today. 00:05:07.280 --> 00:05:12.960 How is it the a Romanist who derives his beliefs from the 00:05:12.960 --> 00:05:18.240 authority of the prope and the magisterium and tradition, how can such 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:22.720 a man reach the same moral conclusions as a couple Lutheran guys 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:24.800 who reject all that stuff? 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:26.800 All we have is sola scriptura. 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:28.480 How do we reach the same conclusions? 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:32.320 There's something going on there that I think sidesteps a lot of 00:05:32.320 --> 00:05:36.640 the 16th century doctrinal arguments we've had. 00:05:36.640 --> 00:05:38.720 And so at the end of the episode we want to just 00:05:38.880 --> 00:05:42.560 kinda talk about where does this leave all of us today? 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.600 Why is it that people from different denominations are listening, you know, 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:49.920 to some random little podcast about theology and history and science and 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:53.120 all these seemingly disparate subjects. 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:55.200 And I think we're gonna we're gonna lay out the case at 00:05:55.200 --> 00:05:58.800 the end that the one thing that is binding us together, apart 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:03.120 from adherence to scripture and belief in the one true God is 00:06:03.440 --> 00:06:06.400 the fact that all of our bodies, all of our church bodies 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:10.000 are being attacked by Satan in the same way with the same 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:14.080 subjects. So that's a reason that Stone Choir has had kind of 00:06:14.080 --> 00:06:18.560 an eclectic set of subjects that we've tackled, things that have upset 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:22.720 a lot of pastors who really have no business talking about those 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:26.800 subjects because they're not equipped, they're not intelligent enough, they're not informed 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:31.280 enough, and they don't have either the spiritual or the intellectual grounding 00:06:31.280 --> 00:06:35.680 to deal with these subjects because they're completely outside of their expertise 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:38.160 and outside of their abilities. 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:40.480 They get really mad and say, you can't talk about that stuff 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:42.640 because we're the experts. 00:06:42.640 --> 00:06:46.240 And I think what we're all realizing in our own denominations is 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:50.240 that the men who have been erected to be the experts for 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:54.320 us are in all cases failing to some degree. 00:06:54.320 --> 00:06:56.480 And it's usually failure from the top down. 00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:02.160 We're seeing the heads of virtually every church body today capitulating to 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:07.440 the world religion, to the views and of this modern age in 00:07:07.440 --> 00:07:09.600 opposition to scripture. 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:12.960 And the trick is that they're not doing it by saying what 00:07:12.960 --> 00:07:15.920 some of the very liberal denominations have done in the last fifty 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:20.400 years. They're not they're not going full blown universalist, not yet. 00:07:20.400 --> 00:07:24.320 And they're not going full blown rejection of scripture, not yet. 00:07:24.320 --> 00:07:27.600 But what they're doing is they're saying, yes, our church body has 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:31.840 a shameful fat past that is tainted by racism and sexism and 00:07:32.640 --> 00:07:36.640 slavery, and write down the list of all the ists and isms 00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:42.240 that every HR department in the country is also preaching. 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:45.680 The church bodies from the top down are all preaching the same 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:48.960 things. And they've all capitulated, every single one of them. 00:07:48.960 --> 00:07:51.360 If you are listening, the people at the top of your church 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:53.760 denomination are doing those things. 00:07:53.760 --> 00:07:56.720 And some of you object to it to some degree, maybe not 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:59.200 to the degree that we do, Corey and I on Stone Choir, 00:07:59.200 --> 00:08:02.240 but at least some of it really has you nervous, if not 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:06.160 angry, because you can see that there is a departure from the 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:09.760 Christian faith, from the faith that we have all inherited from our 00:08:09.760 --> 00:08:14.480 fathers. So as we go through the history of what led into 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:18.320 the Reformation and what came after it, it is in view and 00:08:18.320 --> 00:08:23.200 part of all of those things being our inheritance as Christians. 00:08:23.200 --> 00:08:26.000 That's another point that I hope to get across in this episode, 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.960 something that came up on Twitter this past week. 00:08:28.960 --> 00:08:35.200 A Protestant follower was arguing with me that we must credit all 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:39.040 the cathedral building in the the 11th and twelfth centuries to the 00:08:39.040 --> 00:08:42.800 Roman Catholics, that somehow that belonged to the Pope. 00:08:42.800 --> 00:08:46.960 And we're gonna make the case today that that's completely nonsensical. 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.480 It was not the Pope, it was not Roman Catholicism doing that. 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:52.240 It was Christianity doing that. 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:56.160 And yes, Roman Catholicism was the only Christianity in town, but they're 00:08:56.160 --> 00:08:57.760 not synonymous. 00:08:57.760 --> 00:09:01.680 And that's that's one of the chief problems that Roman Catholics have 00:09:01.680 --> 00:09:05.920 today, because there are faithful Christians in Roman Catholicism, you know quite 00:09:05.920 --> 00:09:10.080 a few of them listen, and I'm very grateful to be reminded 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.360 that there's still Christians there because on paper it doesn't look like 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:15.600 it. And yet if there are men who can agree with us 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:20.720 that you know these moral issues are a Afflicting all the denominations 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:22.000 in the same way. 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:28.080 We at least have some spiritual predicate and actual grounded common faith 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:29.360 of some sort. 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:32.960 And that's a place, if not for complete doctrinal unity, at least 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:33.200 for 00:09:34.160 --> 00:09:36.720 mutual respect and recognition. 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:37.040 And 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:41.520 historically I think it also calls into question some of the claims 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.400 that Rome in particular is made. 00:09:44.400 --> 00:09:47.520 I've said in the past on Twitter, and we've said on here, 00:09:47.520 --> 00:09:49.120 it's tragic to me. 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:56.640 It makes me deeply sorrowful that when someone from Rome does decides 00:09:56.640 --> 00:09:59.840 that the Pope is a demon and that Vatican II was a 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:03.760 wicked overthrow of something good before. 00:10:03.760 --> 00:10:08.720 Because of the doctrines that Rome teaches, they think that their choice 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:11.760 is either apostasy or pope. 00:10:11.760 --> 00:10:14.240 This pope, whatever, whoever the current pope is. 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:18.000 And so if you don't go along with the current regime, you 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:19.680 just have to leave the church. 00:10:19.680 --> 00:10:22.320 And the rest of us in Protestantism aren't faced with that. 00:10:22.640 --> 00:10:26.160 You know, if the Lutherans betray you, maybe there are other denominations 00:10:26.160 --> 00:10:29.840 that you can at least agree with some about, or vice versa. 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:34.960 Roman Catholics, I think, are uniquely placed in a position where they're 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:39.680 told unless I am fully on board with what the papacy does, 00:10:39.680 --> 00:10:43.600 I'm no longer Roman Catholic, which means I'm no longer Christian. 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:47.680 And that's the that's the reason we're doing this episode fundamentally, there 00:10:47.680 --> 00:10:51.360 is a Christianity apart from any particular church body. 00:10:51.520 --> 00:10:56.240 I'm not making some sort of pan denominational appeal to like let's 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:57.280 all get along. 00:10:57.280 --> 00:11:03.120 I'm saying that where scripture is preached, where it is taught faithfully, 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.480 even if the speakers are saying false things about some of the 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:10.560 teachings, God's word is still efficacious all by itself. 00:11:10.560 --> 00:11:13.680 You can have Satan himself standing in your pulpit, and if he 00:11:13.680 --> 00:11:17.680 reads from the Bible, God is going to use scripture, God's words, 00:11:17.680 --> 00:11:22.800 even through the voice of the devil, to affect faith in believers 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.200 and to cause faith to come to those who hear. 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.560 Because the speaker does not have control over what God does with 00:11:28.560 --> 00:11:29.360 his word. 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:33.280 And that's why that's why we have such a crazy audience. 00:11:33.280 --> 00:11:35.280 It's why you know probably less than half of our audience is 00:11:35.280 --> 00:11:39.120 Lutheran. It's not that we're bad Lutherans, and it's not that we 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:42.800 don't talk about the Lutheran approach to these things because frankly we 00:11:42.800 --> 00:11:47.120 believe that this is the historic Lutheran approach to Christianity. 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.240 I think it's consistent with what has been done really to the 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:52.960 last hundred, hundred and twenty years or so. 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:56.880 And it's important for us to talk about these things today because 00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:59.360 the future for all of us is uncertain. 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:04.240 You know, if our denominations are going down the tubes, we're all 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:07.200 facing kind of the same question that the Roman Catholics do. 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:10.160 If you have Bergoglio, if you have a demon pope, a Jesuit 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:14.080 monster in charge of your church and you're told he's it, it's 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:18.000 him or nothing, that puts him in a bad place. 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:20.480 The rest of us are in the same boat. 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:22.560 We all have our Bergoglios. 00:12:22.560 --> 00:12:25.920 We all have them in the headquarters of whatever denominations are. 00:12:25.920 --> 00:12:29.840 Even if it's not a top-down thing, even it's just some boomer 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:33.200 sitting there saying, actually, we need to worship the Jews as they 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:38.560 are, that is going to do damage that will be insurmountable to 00:12:38.560 --> 00:12:40.240 those denominations. 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:44.240 And so we're all faced with the task today of I must 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:50.320 remain Christian, even if my denomination is losing its marbles, losing its 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:57.520 bearings, maybe taking a departure from its historic confessions and maybe in 00:12:57.520 --> 00:13:02.960 some cases those historic confessions had errors that precipitated the current circumstance. 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:06.720 And while they seem like they were okay historically, when push came 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:09.600 to shove today, they fall apart. 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.880 And so I I want this to ultimately as we as we 00:13:12.880 --> 00:13:17.280 wrap up at the end to be hopefully an optimistic message because 00:13:17.760 --> 00:13:21.680 the unity of at least some agreement on some of these things 00:13:21.680 --> 00:13:24.240 across these denominations that we have with our listeners 00:13:25.280 --> 00:13:29.360 is the product of us agreeing about scripture, agreeing about who God 00:13:29.520 --> 00:13:32.880 is and what he says he should be doing and what he 00:13:32.880 --> 00:13:34.560 says he does for us. 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.600 So So we're going to begin by talking about the events that 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:42.320 led up historically to the Reformation. 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:45.440 We're going to talk about what happened during and after the Reformation, 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.960 and then where it leaves us today. 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:52.800 So, for the history portion of this episode, we are going to 00:13:52.800 --> 00:13:57.760 go over five main controversies in the history of the church that 00:13:57.760 --> 00:14:03.280 essentially form the chain leading from the ancient church to up to 00:14:03.520 --> 00:14:06.560 and into the period of the Reformation. 00:14:06.560 --> 00:14:13.760 And those five controversy will be the Monophysite controversy, the Photian Schism, 00:14:13.760 --> 00:14:19.520 the East West, otherwise known as the Great Schism, the Investiture Controversy, 00:14:19.520 --> 00:14:24.400 and then the Avignon Papacy, otherwise known as the Western Schism. 00:14:24.400 --> 00:14:27.920 So starting with monophysitism. 00:14:27.920 --> 00:14:33.200 This This was a controversy in the church relatively early on. 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:37.520 This is in the 400s, essentially, is when this is happening. 00:14:37.520 --> 00:14:42.880 On the one side, you have Eutiches, Cyril of Alexandria, and a 00:14:42.880 --> 00:14:45.520 number of other men, but those are the two big names, and 00:14:45.520 --> 00:14:49.840 then on the other side you have Nestorius and later on Leo 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:55.120 the Great, who is at this point the the Bishop of Rome. 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:59.680 And I think it's worth mentioning here, just as sort of an 00:14:59.680 --> 00:15:05.120 aside, he is called Leo the Great with sufficient warrant. 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:08.720 There were good popes, he is one of them. 00:15:09.040 --> 00:15:13.840 Lutherans and others, particularly other Protestants, this is not as much of 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:18.960 a problem in Lutheranism, but there's a tendency among certain Protestant groups 00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:21.920 to think that oh all of the popes were always corrupt and 00:15:21.920 --> 00:15:24.560 horrible and they weren't Christian and 00:15:25.520 --> 00:15:26.880 all these other things. 00:15:26.880 --> 00:15:29.680 That's just not true. 00:15:29.680 --> 00:15:35.520 For a very long time, for centuries, we had faithful men leading 00:15:35.520 --> 00:15:37.120 the Western Church. 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:38.480 They weren't perfect. 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:39.760 They had problems. 00:15:39.760 --> 00:15:41.360 Some were better than others. 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:44.400 Some were not good men, but there were good men in there, 00:15:44.400 --> 00:15:47.040 and it's important to keep that in mind, and Leo the Great 00:15:47.040 --> 00:15:47.680 is one of them. 00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:52.480 He is appropriately named in history, otherwise known as Leo I, since 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:54.640 he was the first of that name. 00:15:54.640 --> 00:15:59.040 Worth remembering the name because Leo X, of course, is the one 00:15:59.040 --> 00:16:01.280 who is Pope when the Reformation starts. 00:16:01.280 --> 00:16:04.240 He is the one who excommunicates Luther. 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:09.760 But anyway, dealing with this particular controversy, this controversy is over the 00:16:09.760 --> 00:16:11.360 nature of Christ, specifically 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:17.360 the relationship or the nature of the divine and human in Christ. 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:23.520 So the players again, Eutaches was the Archimandrite in Constantinople, he was 00:16:23.920 --> 00:16:27.040 condemned and deposed at the Council of Constantinople. 00:16:27.040 --> 00:16:28.640 He was eventually reinstated. 00:16:28.640 --> 00:16:31.680 There's a lot of that that happens in this controversy. 00:16:31.680 --> 00:16:36.000 Cyril of Alexandria was sort of the one of the theological powerhouses 00:16:36.640 --> 00:16:42.320 behind this particular side, he claimed that Christ had one nature, a 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:44.880 divine human nature. 00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:50.480 So not necessarily a mixed nature, but one nature. 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:52.320 This is the controversy here. 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:55.920 On the other side you have Nestorius, who claims that Christ has 00:16:55.920 --> 00:16:57.120 two natures. 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:02.400 He overemphasizes the distinction ultimately the resolution says that both are wrong, 00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:06.320 and that is the stance of modern Christianity. 00:17:06.320 --> 00:17:10.080 But he was correct in asserting Christ had two natures, the human 00:17:10.320 --> 00:17:11.760 and the divine. 00:17:11.760 --> 00:17:15.840 Nestorius, for his part, his short biography as it were, he was 00:17:15.840 --> 00:17:19.840 the patriarch of Constantinople, he was put at that position in four 00:17:19.840 --> 00:17:23.440 hundred twenty eight, he was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:27.040 four hundred thirty one, banished to Egypt in four hundred thirty six, 00:17:27.040 --> 00:17:30.400 and he died in Egypt in four hundred fifty one. 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:35.200 He was eventually, of course, somewhat vindicated during the outcome of this, 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:37.760 although his views again went too far. 00:17:37.760 --> 00:17:43.280 Leo the Great, again, Pope, he authored the tome of Leo, which 00:17:43.520 --> 00:17:49.040 really formed a lot of the theological basis for what would be 00:17:49.040 --> 00:17:51.920 the resolution of this controversy. 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:58.000 He is credited with pushing through the Chalcedonian definition and then getting 00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.200 churches to adopt that. 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:02.560 And that is the resolution of this controversy. 00:18:02.560 --> 00:18:06.400 It's called the Chalcedonian definition or the Chalcedonian Creed. 00:18:07.280 --> 00:18:11.360 And so the councils that are relevant here, first the council of 00:18:11.360 --> 00:18:16.880 Ephesus in 431, that was called by Emperor Theodosius II, that is 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:23.600 the one that condemned Nestorius, promulgated monophysitism, and was plagued by political 00:18:23.600 --> 00:18:26.240 and other corruption and intrigue. 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:30.080 Then we have the Council of Ephesus, another one, in four hundred 00:18:30.080 --> 00:18:31.280 forty nine. 00:18:31.280 --> 00:18:34.640 This was dominated by monophysites. 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:39.360 This is largely historically referred to as the robber council and seen 00:18:39.360 --> 00:18:42.480 as not legitimate for a number of reasons. 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:46.640 It is largely rejected by the church and ultimately completely rejected by 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:48.240 the Church. 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:50.800 Then we have finally the Council of Chalcedon. 00:18:50.800 --> 00:18:53.280 This is the one that resolves the controversy. 00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:57.680 This was called by Emperor Marcion in 451. 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:00.560 And this is what gives us the Chalcedonian definition. 00:19:00.560 --> 00:19:02.320 Now, you may not have heard this before. 00:19:02.320 --> 00:19:07.120 I'm going to read through it because it is a creedal statement 00:19:07.360 --> 00:19:12.320 of Christianity, of what you and I believe as Christian. 00:19:12.320 --> 00:19:16.400 modern actual Christians, as Western Christians. 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:21.760 Incidentally, the Eastern Orthodox can agree with this creed. 00:19:21.760 --> 00:19:26.240 This is before the schism between the East and the West 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.880 Those who would not agree with this would be the Oriental Orthodox, 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:33.440 they are the ones who split as a result of this, and 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:35.840 they remain in schism today. 00:19:35.840 --> 00:19:41.680 Although notably, they are more meaphysite than monophysite. 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:44.960 The difference between the two is the difference between the Greek words 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:51.440 monos and my both mean one, but monos implies a alone or 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:52.880 solitary, it is 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.520 a more extreme sense of one. 00:19:57.520 --> 00:20:02.640 It carries a connotation that Meophysite does not, and so calling them 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:06.560 monophysites may be a little uncharitable, it's probably unwarranted. 00:20:06.560 --> 00:20:10.960 They're still wrong, but they're not as wrong as they could be. 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:15.520 But to read through the Chalcedonian definition, or the Chalcedonian Creed, whichever 00:20:15.520 --> 00:20:16.560 one you want to call it 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:23.680 We then, following the Holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:28.080 to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the 00:20:28.080 --> 00:20:33.600 same perfect in Godhead, and also perfect in manhood, truly God and 00:20:33.600 --> 00:20:40.240 truly man, of a reasonable soul and body, consubstantial, or coessential, with 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:44.880 the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:50.560 the manhood, in all things like unto us, without sin, begotten before 00:20:50.560 --> 00:20:54.240 all ages of the Father, according to the Godhead, and in these 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:58.720 latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:02.800 Mary, the Mother of God, according to the manhood, one and the 00:21:02.800 --> 00:21:09.040 same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:16.640 Inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably, the distinction of natures 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:20.560 being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the 00:21:20.560 --> 00:21:25.680 property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person, and 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:30.960 one subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:36.080 the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus 00:21:36.080 --> 00:21:40.560 Christ, as the prophets from the beginning have declared concerning him, and 00:21:40.560 --> 00:21:44.000 the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the creed of 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.880 the Holy Fathers has handed down to us. 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:53.200 Now, as you can see, this is just a statement of Christian 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:57.520 belief. And this is another place where we can emphasize 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:01.920 the nature of creeds and how they come about in the history 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:03.280 of the church. 00:22:03.280 --> 00:22:07.280 We have creeds as a response to heresies. 00:22:07.280 --> 00:22:11.840 We don't just make creeds because we feel like making a creed. 00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:17.680 Historically, the creeds in the church have been created specifically in response 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:19.440 to a number of heresies. 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:24.160 Usually it's not just one, usually multiple heresies are addressed. 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:29.760 For instance, here in the Chalcedonian Creed, Arianism is addressed, Apollinarianism is 00:22:29.760 --> 00:22:34.400 addressed, Eutikianism, and obviously Nestorianism as well. 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:37.760 These are all addressed in this creed. 00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:40.000 That is the point of a creed. 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.640 It is the rejection of false teaching and the affirmation of correct 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.920 teaching. That is why we have them, that is why it is 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.280 important to retain them and to use them. 00:22:51.280 --> 00:22:55.680 Now we don't recite this one, because we have the Apostles' Creed, 00:22:55.680 --> 00:23:01.200 the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, particularly the Athanasian Creed, dealing more 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:05.440 extensively with the Trinity, and so we use those creeds. 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:07.280 You could still recite this creed. 00:23:07.280 --> 00:23:08.480 This creed is still correct. 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:11.440 It is a statement of Christian belief. 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.160 I would like to pull out one more thing from this before 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:17.440 we move on to the next controversy. 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:20.800 You may have noticed that it says born of the Virgin Mary, 00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:22.480 the mother of God. 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:25.760 The reason that we have that in there, the Greek word being 00:23:25.760 --> 00:23:30.960 theotokos, is that there was some agitation by certain parties to use 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:38.480 the word Christotokos, which is mother of Christ, which is not incorrect 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:42.240 in itself, but is incorrect in emphasis. 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:46.560 And the reason that it is incorrect in emphasis is because it 00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:52.480 creates a division between God the Son and God the Father that 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.360 is not there and that we should not teach. 00:23:55.360 --> 00:23:56.960 It is in essence a denial of the 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:03.280 full godhood of Christ, by saying, Well, no Mary is the mother 00:24:03.280 --> 00:24:05.440 of Christ, not the mother of God. 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:08.960 When you say Theotokos or Mother of God instead of mother of 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:12.480 Christ, you are afraid of the full divinity of Christ, and that 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.280 is the reason that is in this creed. 00:24:15.280 --> 00:24:19.680 It is a rejection of those who try to minimize or teach 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:24.160 falsely about the godhood of Christ. 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:25.040 As 00:24:25.040 --> 00:24:30.880 you're listening to these disputes among Christians in church history, I I 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.280 don't want people to take the message, oh no, I need to 00:24:33.280 --> 00:24:37.520 go back and have a strongly held opinion on the monophysite controversy. 00:24:37.600 --> 00:24:38.480 You don't. 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:42.880 The important illustration that these are providing as we go through what 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:47.440 happened prior to the Reformation is consistent with what God records in 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:51.600 First Corinthians eleven, where it says, But in the following instructions, I 00:24:51.600 --> 00:24:54.640 do not commend you, because when you come together it is not 00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:56.320 for the better but for the worse. 00:24:56.320 --> 00:24:59.040 For in the first place, when you come together as a church, 00:24:59.040 --> 00:25:01.520 I hear that there are divisions among you, and I believe it 00:25:01.520 --> 00:25:04.400 in part, for there must be factions among you in order that 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:09.120 those who are genuine among you might be recognized. 00:25:09.120 --> 00:25:12.800 Now in this letter to the Corinthians, he was specifically dealing with 00:25:12.800 --> 00:25:17.200 the circumstances surrounding their communion practice, but I think that the principle 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:19.760 clearly holds more broadly. 00:25:19.760 --> 00:25:26.160 If within one congregation you can have such divisions and God says 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:29.200 that it must be necessary for there to be factions, that those 00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:31.760 who are genuine might be recognized. 00:25:31.760 --> 00:25:34.800 How much more so will it be the case when you have 00:25:34.800 --> 00:25:36.720 collections of congregations? 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.760 Or what you know, today we could all call denominations. 00:25:39.760 --> 00:25:42.960 There was different names for it at the time, but these were 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:49.680 functionally national churches coming together with their leaders, discussing things on common 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:54.320 terms as Christians, and working through disagreements about scripture. 00:25:54.320 --> 00:25:59.360 And you know, today we appeal and some appeal to the so 00:25:59.360 --> 00:26:02.080 called authority of the church fathers. 00:26:02.080 --> 00:26:03.520 These are all church fathers. 00:26:03.520 --> 00:26:05.280 Nestorius was a church father. 00:26:05.280 --> 00:26:07.920 You know, he's he he goes way down the list because of 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:09.680 his heresy, but 00:26:10.560 --> 00:26:13.200 the determining factor was scripture. 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:17.440 It was not his senior seniority or his lack of placement or 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:19.040 his lack of erudition. 00:26:19.040 --> 00:26:20.720 It was that he erred. 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.680 He was a father who erred severely. 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:27.360 And so it has always been the case within the church that 00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:31.760 there are disagreements that are permitted by God so that these things 00:26:31.760 --> 00:26:35.920 can be hammered out so that when the creeds were inherited by 00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:41.360 successive generations from these early disputes, we no longer have to worry. 00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:46.480 Every Sunday today, in many congregations, one of these creeds is going 00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:47.600 to be recited. 00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:52.320 And it is not only an important public confession of faith that 00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:56.240 we are all in agreement within a congregation, that we are in 00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:00.400 agreement across congregations, you know, the apostles and I see creeds are 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:06.000 spoken by many different denominations, because although we have some disagreements, we 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:10.160 also at least have unity on who God is and what God 00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:12.800 has done as it's recorded in the creeds. 00:27:12.800 --> 00:27:16.960 Again, putting to bed those ancient controversies, but they're very live at 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:18.240 the day in the day. 00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:21.760 It wasn't as though the creed just appeared and then everything was 00:27:21.760 --> 00:27:23.040 magically fixed. 00:27:23.040 --> 00:27:26.400 The creed was hammering out the dispute to the point that they 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.560 could say this is what the church teaches. 00:27:30.560 --> 00:27:36.720 And importantly, the ultimate authority in those cases did not rest on 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:40.480 the opinions of the men who spoke them and handed them down, 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.640 but on their appeals to scripture. 00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:46.160 As they made these arguments, they were appealing to scripture and to 00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:50.880 what earlier apostolic fathers had written and said about scripture. 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:56.080 But ultimately, all of these arguments were always reasoned from God's Word. 00:27:56.080 --> 00:28:00.240 And so as we get into the Reformation, you see the same 00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:01.040 thing happening. 00:28:01.040 --> 00:28:03.920 So as you listen to this art, just keep in mind that 00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:08.080 these are historical quibbles because they were put to bed. 00:28:08.080 --> 00:28:11.760 But the fact that there were fights among Christians, I don't want 00:28:11.760 --> 00:28:13.920 to say it's a good thing because we should all be on 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:14.560 the same page. 00:28:14.560 --> 00:28:17.040 We should all there should be no disagreement. 00:28:17.040 --> 00:28:20.000 And yet God says that there will be disagreement so that the 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:21.840 genuine will be recognized. 00:28:21.840 --> 00:28:23.280 And how are they recognized? 00:28:23.280 --> 00:28:26.560 Not by the authority of a man, but by the authority of 00:28:26.560 --> 00:28:29.920 Scripture. Because all the arguments that they made were ultimately rooted in 00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:32.960 Scripture, which is why everyone accepts them today. 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:36.640 See if if the arguments for these creeds were made based on 00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:40.160 the authority of the men who wrote them, Lutherans wouldn't accept that 00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:44.000 most Protestants, probably no Protestants, would accept them today. 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:48.080 They're accepted because they are in accord with scripture. 00:28:48.080 --> 00:28:52.960 So when these fights occur, it lets us, as men who are 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:57.440 trying to be faithful to God, hammer out the disputes that is 00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:01.680 Satan trying to divide the body of Christ, which is the church 00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:02.960 capital C. 00:29:03.280 --> 00:29:05.920 As we go through this episode, we're going to try to be 00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:10.160 very particular when we say the church of always meaning all believers, 00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:15.040 the elect, those who are living today who have faith, that is 00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:18.640 a superset of who's in any particular denomination. 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:20.160 And one of the historical 00:29:21.120 --> 00:29:24.800 side effects of the consolidation of Rome is that as things go 00:29:24.800 --> 00:29:30.240 further on, the Western Church becomes synonymous with the Roman Catholic Church. 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:34.640 But when we speak today, if we confuse the two inextricably, we 00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:38.640 create a situation where Protestants suddenly have to say, Well, I used 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:41.280 to believe the Pope, but now I don't, so maybe I should 00:29:41.280 --> 00:29:42.400 still believe the Pope. 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:45.440 And what we're trying to get across is that's nonsense. 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:50.240 What we believe today is what Christians hammered out based on scripture. 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:53.680 And it still accords with scripture, but it wasn't based on what 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:55.040 these guys thought. 00:29:55.040 --> 00:29:59.840 It was based on scripture and then their application of God gives 00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:05.360 given reason to derive truthful, defensible things about what God has said 00:30:05.360 --> 00:30:06.880 about Himself. 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:10.320 That's the case in all times and in all places in the 00:30:10.320 --> 00:30:14.160 church. Ever since Pentecost, there have been disagreements among Christians. 00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:16.160 There will always be disagreements. 00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:17.840 That's not a source for panic. 00:30:17.840 --> 00:30:19.760 It it's a source for sorrow. 00:30:19.760 --> 00:30:21.280 We should all be in agreement. 00:30:21.280 --> 00:30:24.400 And it's good when we can agree about anything because hopefully it 00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:28.240 means that we can build a foundation to agree on more things. 00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:32.480 But the question in the Reformation is who's the tiebreaker? 00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:35.520 As Corey said, you know, it is important to have someone in 00:30:35.520 --> 00:30:39.520 charge. That was never not the case at any point in in 00:30:39.520 --> 00:30:42.240 church history leading up to the Reformation. 00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:46.080 You know, James was the first bishop of Rome, Jesus half brother. 00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:48.160 Ansonelli wasn't Peter. 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:53.120 And yet, you know, when Peter was obviously a very important apostle, 00:30:53.120 --> 00:30:56.560 Paul opposed him to his face publicly because he taught falsely. 00:30:56.560 --> 00:30:57.600 He rebuked him. 00:30:57.600 --> 00:30:59.120 Peter repented. 00:30:59.120 --> 00:31:02.720 They got on the same page because Paul corrected him and they 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:05.920 agreed. That is part of the Christian life. 00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:09.920 If Peter and Paul can disagree, we can disagree too, and we 00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:14.160 can get past it by rooting those disagreements in scripture and then 00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:17.680 figuring out who is being genuine. 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:18.160 There's even 00:31:18.560 --> 00:31:23.520 a bit of irony, perhaps, in the parties involved in this initial 00:31:23.520 --> 00:31:28.960 dispute in this particular controversy, because Cyril of Alexandria is a very 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:30.720 respected church father. 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:34.800 His writings are still widely read and cited, and yet he is 00:31:34.800 --> 00:31:40.000 the one perhaps most strongly condemned by this council for his incorrect 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:43.040 teaching. Just because a man 00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:49.840 is a church father, or is particularly orthodox or staunch with regard 00:31:49.840 --> 00:31:54.560 to the faith, in one or even many respects, does not mean 00:31:54.560 --> 00:31:56.320 that he cannot err. 00:31:56.560 --> 00:32:01.280 There are really there is not a single writer in church history 00:32:01.520 --> 00:32:02.960 who has not erred. 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:06.000 Now, of course, I don't mean those who actually wrote Scripture. 00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:08.160 Scripture is without error. 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:09.920 Scripture is inerrant. 00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:12.800 That is what Christians believe. 00:32:12.800 --> 00:32:18.320 But outside of Scripture, it is possible for all authors to commit 00:32:18.320 --> 00:32:21.760 error, and virtually all authors do. 00:32:21.760 --> 00:32:24.240 That doesn't mean there are errors in every single work. 00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:27.200 There are works that are free from error. 00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:31.600 But if you read the entire corpus of an author, particularly prolific 00:32:31.600 --> 00:32:36.720 author, he is going to state things that are either untrue, Or 00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:39.920 at least unwisely stated. 00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:41.120 That doesn't mean he's wrong. 00:32:41.120 --> 00:32:42.400 That doesn't mean you can't read him. 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:44.800 It means that you are to read him and compare him to 00:32:44.800 --> 00:32:50.240 Scripture, because Scripture is the standard by which we test all other 00:32:50.560 --> 00:32:57.120 theological, doctrinal, dogmatic works, because Scripture is God's Word, and God's Word 00:32:57.120 --> 00:33:00.480 is supreme over all else. 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.480 The next two controversies are really related. 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:08.240 They're distinct to some degree, but the one flows into the other, 00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:12.320 and they are related in so far as the one is sort 00:33:12.320 --> 00:33:14.880 of the prototype of the other. 00:33:15.600 --> 00:33:22.320 These two controversies are the Photian Schism and the Great Schism, otherwise 00:33:22.320 --> 00:33:25.200 known as the East West Schism. 00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:28.800 The Photian Schism is named after a gentleman by the name of 00:33:29.040 --> 00:33:31.920 Photius, unsurprisingly, perhaps. 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:35.680 This occurred in the ninth century, it was between the East and 00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:38.160 the West, as you can probably tell from the fact that it 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:41.760 leads into the the Great Schism. 00:33:41.760 --> 00:33:44.800 This occurred for a number of reasons, but it was not a 00:33:44.800 --> 00:33:46.960 simple matter of theological differences. 00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:51.280 There were theological aspects, cultural, political, and you will notice as we 00:33:51.280 --> 00:33:55.920 go through these, culture always plays a part. 00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:00.240 Because there are national differences between peoples. 00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.520 One nation is not identical to another nation. 00:34:03.520 --> 00:34:06.640 The French and the Germans are going to disagree on certain things. 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:10.080 The Germans and the Italians are going to disagree on certain things. 00:34:10.080 --> 00:34:13.840 We're going to see that specifically actually in some of these controversies. 00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:16.560 The British and the Italians will disagree. 00:34:16.560 --> 00:34:19.600 Because nations have a national character. 00:34:19.600 --> 00:34:20.880 Nations have a culture. 00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:22.960 You're going to have differences. 00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:25.600 And just because you have those differences doesn't mean that one is 00:34:25.600 --> 00:34:28.960 more correct than the other when it comes to worship. 00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:33.680 You can have national differences in how you worship, and that's fine. 00:34:34.080 --> 00:34:36.800 God made the nations, He made them different. 00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:38.960 They are going to behave differently. 00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:41.920 A German church service is not going to be the same as 00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:45.040 a French church service, and that's fine. 00:34:45.040 --> 00:34:48.080 If you are teaching the same doctrine, you are holding the same 00:34:48.080 --> 00:34:52.960 dogma, by all means, have different hymns and different customs, that is 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:54.560 entirely fine. 00:34:55.920 --> 00:35:01.360 But back to this controversy, which, again, part of it is cultural. 00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:05.760 The leadership would be Photius on the side of the East, who 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:09.680 was the patriarch of Constantinople, appointed to that position in eight hundred 00:35:09.680 --> 00:35:13.280 fifty eight, and then and then Pope Nicholas the First, is obviously 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:16.320 the leader of the Western Church at this point, also appointed to 00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.360 his position in eight fifty eight. 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:23.680 And so this schism was initiated in part by the elevation of 00:35:23.680 --> 00:35:27.120 Photius to patriarch of Constantinople. 00:35:27.120 --> 00:35:31.440 This was after the removal of Ignatius his predecessor. 00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:35.760 This was supported by the Eastern Emperor, but it was opposed by 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:36.720 the Pope. 00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:40.640 Because this is where the politics comes into it. 00:35:40.640 --> 00:35:42.640 The Pope actually did the right thing. 00:35:42.640 --> 00:35:45.520 He attempted to resolve this controversy. 00:35:45.520 --> 00:35:50.880 He sent legates to Constantinople in an attempt to investigate and resolve. 00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:54.400 They determined it had been done incorrectly, that is the removal of 00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:58.000 Ignatius in the installation of Photius. 00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:04.240 Unfortunately this was not resolved peaceably in the sense of without conflict, 00:36:04.240 --> 00:36:06.000 not in the sense of violence in this case. 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:10.880 And so Photius and Nicholas mutually excommunicated each other. 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:14.320 One of the first times that this happens historically, not the only 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:18.480 time. The Eastern Orthodox, we can now properly call them this at 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:24.160 this point in history, call the Council of Constantinople, notably the West 00:36:24.160 --> 00:36:27.360 did not participate in this, so you can hardly call it ecumenical. 00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:33.600 This reaffirmed the appointment of Photius and anathematized Nicholas the First. 00:36:33.600 --> 00:36:36.240 Part of the controversy here, and part of how this leads into 00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:40.560 the Great Schism, which is next, is that there was some controversy 00:36:40.560 --> 00:36:42.240 over the Filioque. 00:36:42.640 --> 00:36:46.960 Now the Filioque had actually been added in the sixth century. 00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:52.400 This was against Aryanism, and also, incidentally, against Nestorianism. 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:56.320 So this is centuries after the fact. 00:36:56.320 --> 00:36:58.160 This is notable. 00:36:58.160 --> 00:37:01.600 But I will get into that more in the next controversy, which 00:37:01.600 --> 00:37:04.320 we'll get into now, which is the Great Schism. 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:07.360 This is the schism between the East and the West and the 00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:13.120 West. This culminated in ten fifty four, so not that long after 00:37:13.120 --> 00:37:15.600 the Photian schism. 00:37:15.600 --> 00:37:19.680 The culmination was with the estrangement of the Western Church and the 00:37:19.680 --> 00:37:23.440 East, and of course mutual excommunications. 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:28.560 The primary factors for this were theological differences, although this should perhaps 00:37:28.560 --> 00:37:35.600 go last, the Filioque, the disagreements over papal authority, historical the 00:37:35.600 --> 00:37:40.000 position had been that the Pope was first not the Pope at 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.640 the time, the Bishop of Rome, was first among equals, and 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:49.120 around this time and a little before the Pope had been asserting 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:55.280 his authority more vigorously, and so there were disagreements in the East 00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:57.440 with regard to this. 00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.560 Partly theological but largely political. 00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:04.560 And of course there are also the liturgical and cultural differences which 00:38:04.560 --> 00:38:08.720 always play into these conflicts. 00:38:08.720 --> 00:38:12.000 Now the aftermath of this, which is worth noting here, is that 00:38:12.080 --> 00:38:17.200 is that eventually the East falls, Constantinople is sacked and destroyed, and 00:38:17.200 --> 00:38:20.560 part of the reason for that is the breach between the East 00:38:20.560 --> 00:38:21.360 and the West. 00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:25.840 Now here I'm not saying necessarily that God was punishing them for 00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:27.680 what they did. 00:38:27.680 --> 00:38:31.600 I have advanced arguments along those lines in other places, that's not 00:38:31.600 --> 00:38:33.680 the point here. 00:38:33.680 --> 00:38:37.040 The issue is that because of the breach between the East and 00:38:37.040 --> 00:38:42.320 the West, the East no longer had the full support ready at 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:45.440 hand that it once had from the West, and so when you 00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:49.280 have Muslim hordes invading, they get overrun. 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:52.080 Would this have happened without the Great Schism? 00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:55.840 Probably not, because they would have had greater support from the West, 00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:59.360 because they would not have been at odds with one another, and 00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:01.920 so they would have viewed each other more as brothers than as 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:06.240 adversaries. But I said I would talk more about the Filioque, and 00:39:06.240 --> 00:39:11.760 that's going to go here because it's very relevant to this schism. 00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:17.280 The Filioque, as I mentioned, was added in the 6th century, and 00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:19.680 I should say what the Filioque is for those who are not 00:39:19.680 --> 00:39:22.240 familiar with the term or familiar with Latin, it just means and 00:39:22.240 --> 00:39:23.120 the Son. 00:39:23.120 --> 00:39:27.040 It's talking about the procession of the Holy Spirit. 00:39:27.040 --> 00:39:31.520 The Western Church rightly teaches that the Spirit proceeds from the Father 00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:33.840 and the Son. 00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:36.160 This is part of the Creed. 00:39:36.160 --> 00:39:38.960 In this case I mean the Nicene Creed. 00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:44.720 And so this was added in order to teach right doctrine against 00:39:44.720 --> 00:39:48.720 the Aryans and against the Nestorians. 00:39:48.720 --> 00:39:52.400 The East initially objected on the grounds that it had not been 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:56.560 added via an ecumenical council, and so they were objecting on procedural 00:39:56.560 --> 00:40:01.520 grounds. It would be the equivalent of today if you were in 00:40:02.080 --> 00:40:06.720 some deliberative or legislative body objecting to the way a vote was 00:40:06.720 --> 00:40:11.280 conducted. You're not objecting to the outcome or the ultimate decision, you're 00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:15.520 objecting to the procedures that were used to arrive at that decision, 00:40:15.520 --> 00:40:17.040 at that outcome. 00:40:17.040 --> 00:40:22.080 And so the East did not initially object on theological grounds. 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:28.480 Today they object on theological grounds, because over time they entrenched themselves 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:33.920 on their objection, and, in order to distinguish themselves from the West, 00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:36.480 denied the Filioque. 00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:41.520 It is not that the West added the filioque, because yes, the 00:40:41.520 --> 00:40:47.360 West added the literal word to the creed against these heretics, but 00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:50.080 that is what Scripture teaches. 00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:52.720 That is what Christians believe. 00:40:52.720 --> 00:40:54.400 There are scriptural verses on this. 00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:56.400 We've gone over it before. 00:40:56.960 --> 00:40:59.120 Let me read those verses here. 00:40:59.120 --> 00:41:02.400 You can look up the specific verses, but it's John fifteen twenty 00:41:02.560 --> 00:41:06.080 six, Romans 8:9, and Galatians 4 7. 00:41:06.080 --> 00:41:10.320 So when we say that they added words to the creed, just 00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:15.520 like every other word of the Nicene Creed, it's quotations from scripture 00:41:15.520 --> 00:41:20.640 itself. So they were making again a theological argument from scripture in 00:41:20.640 --> 00:41:23.360 opposition to an emergent heresy. 00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:28.160 And as Corey said, the initial objection to Filioque was entirely procedural 00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:33.840 and then later on they recconned it into being somehow religious, which 00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:38.240 means it is not scriptural because they're now rejecting scripture by rejecting 00:41:38.240 --> 00:41:39.360 the filioque. 00:41:39.600 --> 00:41:44.640 I think this is an important illustration of the nature of creeds. 00:41:44.640 --> 00:41:50.080 It's not that the Nicene Creed was a complete confession of everything 00:41:50.080 --> 00:41:53.600 that could possibly ever be said about the Christian religion, and therefore 00:41:53.680 --> 00:41:55.440 it could never be tampered with. 00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:56.480 They had an objection. 00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:00.240 I think it was a reasonable objection to the procedural manner in 00:42:00.240 --> 00:42:02.560 which the filioque was added. 00:42:02.720 --> 00:42:05.760 But in terms of doctrine, there can be no doubt that it 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:06.800 is correct. 00:42:07.040 --> 00:42:09.280 And one of the, you know, this is the only time that 00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:12.400 words have been added to an existing creed, as far as I 00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:15.360 know, but they had a choice. 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:18.480 They could either make up a new creed to combat the heresy, 00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:22.560 or they could add and the sun, three words, one word in 00:42:22.560 --> 00:42:24.480 Latin because it's a compound. 00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:28.400 So they added the smallest possible amount to an existing creed. 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:29.920 They didn't change its nature. 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:31.840 They combated a heresy. 00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:35.680 And then others came along and complained about the paperwork and then 00:42:35.680 --> 00:42:38.560 say, you know, we don't actually believe what scripture says to begin 00:42:38.560 --> 00:42:42.960 with. So it's not the case that there's something wrong with a 00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:47.520 creed or with the specific Nicene Creed, either before or after. 00:42:47.520 --> 00:42:49.920 The creed was correct before this was added. 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:51.120 It wasn't it was wrong. 00:42:51.120 --> 00:42:53.920 It's that it didn't address a controversy that emerged. 00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:56.640 And so when they found that there was a hole in the 00:42:56.640 --> 00:43:00.800 specific statement of faith, the confession of the Nicene Creed, they plugged 00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:03.440 it with one word in Latin, three words in English. 00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:08.720 And that solved anyone possibly agreeing with the heresy. 00:43:08.720 --> 00:43:13.040 And so I think it's a great example of the function that 00:43:13.040 --> 00:43:16.320 creeds practically serve within the church. 00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:18.960 It is to define what we believe. 00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:21.360 Creed, Credo, is I believe. 00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:22.240 That's all it means. 00:43:22.240 --> 00:43:24.880 It's be it's the first words of the apostles in the Nicene 00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:27.760 Creed. I believe. 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:31.040 When a church adopts a creed, when a church says this is 00:43:31.040 --> 00:43:35.120 what we believe, it is not adherence to the teachings of men. 00:43:35.120 --> 00:43:39.280 It is saying this is what Scripture says about God and this 00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:42.960 is what the church has taught about God ever since there were 00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:45.120 men disagreeing about what God was. 00:43:45.120 --> 00:43:49.520 The arguments were made we side with the historic Christian church in 00:43:49.520 --> 00:43:51.040 these in these terms. 00:43:51.040 --> 00:43:55.440 And it's valuable because it is a benchmark against which all preaching 00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:56.640 can be measured. 00:43:56.640 --> 00:43:59.680 One of the great things about the way the creed is said 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:03.360 usually either right before or right after the sermon is it is 00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:06.080 like a mirror being held up to the preacher. 00:44:06.080 --> 00:44:09.840 Whatever he just said, if it disagrees in any way with one 00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:13.360 of the creeds, there's a good chance that somebody's gonna notice. 00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:17.200 And that particular preacher on that particular Sunday may well be called 00:44:17.200 --> 00:44:23.200 to account, hopefully privately, by the man who said, I don't understand 00:44:23.520 --> 00:44:25.840 what you said in view of the creed. 00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:30.880 Now it's a it's a operation to pause and teach. 00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:35.760 Hopefully the pastor got it right and the intentional listener misunderstood something 00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:36.720 that was said. 00:44:36.720 --> 00:44:39.440 But in the case where the pastor is stepping outside of this 00:44:39.600 --> 00:44:41.920 door Christian faith, it's right there. 00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:45.520 It's a big glowing sign sitting next to whatever the pastor is 00:44:45.520 --> 00:44:50.480 preaching, saying, Well, the historic Christian faith is this, this guy's saying 00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:51.360 this other thing. 00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:54.400 You people in the pews need to be paying attention and you 00:44:54.400 --> 00:44:57.840 need to hold the man in the pulpit account because he does 00:44:57.840 --> 00:44:59.840 not get to say whatever he wants. 00:44:59.840 --> 00:45:03.680 He is not up there speaking for God ex cathedra. 00:45:03.680 --> 00:45:06.320 He is up there speaking in the stead of God. 00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:09.520 And the preacher who disagrees with the creed by the smallest degree 00:45:09.600 --> 00:45:12.640 is not speaking for God but speaking against him. 00:45:12.640 --> 00:45:15.680 So that's the reason that these confessions have been preserved within the 00:45:15.680 --> 00:45:20.400 church. They provide an invaluable function, and they protect the common man 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:21.200 in the pews. 00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:24.640 The man who doesn't know the history of this stuff, doesn't know 00:45:24.640 --> 00:45:28.320 about Photius or any of these other old dead guys, doesn't care, 00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:31.360 but he knows that if a pastor says something that disagrees with 00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:34.800 the simple words of the creed that a child can memorize and 00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:40.560 should that is an occasion for the Christians in that congregation to 00:45:40.560 --> 00:45:42.960 take it closer what it's what's going on. 00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:46.080 And again, maybe the pastor's faithful and it's just something that was 00:45:46.080 --> 00:45:48.320 confusing. Maybe he should have said it better. 00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:51.920 Maybe the man in the in the pew doesn't have sound doctrine. 00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:54.160 Maybe it's an area where the pastor needs to help him. 00:45:54.160 --> 00:45:57.600 But if there's a disagreement, that's a good thing as a Christian 00:45:57.600 --> 00:45:58.320 thing for a man 00:45:59.200 --> 00:46:02.960 to ask another man, this does not seem to be consistent with 00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:04.960 the historic teachings of the church. 00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:06.720 Help me understand what's going on here. 00:46:06.720 --> 00:46:08.240 It doesn't need to be an accusation. 00:46:08.240 --> 00:46:09.440 Initially, it shouldn't be. 00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:11.360 It's like, Pastor, I don't get it. 00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:14.240 The creed says this, and you said this help me understand how 00:46:14.240 --> 00:46:18.160 those are in accord, and they should be, and if they're not, 00:46:18.160 --> 00:46:21.120 then that congregation goes on to the next steps. 00:46:21.120 --> 00:46:25.280 So these are the inheritance of the entire Western Church, the entire 00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:29.360 church. It was a case until the East rejected the Nicene Creed, 00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:35.200 at least that portion of it, in in a act of recalcitrance. 00:46:35.200 --> 00:46:39.200 These are the preservation of the faith that we inherit. 00:46:39.200 --> 00:46:40.640 And I think an overarching 00:46:41.600 --> 00:46:45.360 theme of what led to the Reformation, what leads us to this 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:49.760 today, is that we are all inheritors of the Christian faith from 00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:53.040 our fathers and where they have erred, we need to get things 00:46:53.040 --> 00:46:57.760 straightened out, not to be antagonistic or disrespectful to them, but we 00:46:57.760 --> 00:46:59.920 have to get this stuff right because it's God's. 00:46:59.920 --> 00:47:04.160 And if the inheritance that we have received has been tampered with, 00:47:04.160 --> 00:47:07.440 these guideposts help us get it back in line. 00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:10.160 And if it turns out that our inheritance in some cases and 00:47:10.160 --> 00:47:15.520 some denominations was at some point earlier on corrupted, those are discussions 00:47:15.520 --> 00:47:19.200 that individual Christians in their congregations need to have to figure out 00:47:19.200 --> 00:47:22.640 where was the error introduced and then what do we as Christians 00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:25.440 trying to be faithful to God's word, what do we do with 00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:31.360 it? So these are continuous discussions every Sunday, every year, every century, 00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:34.640 because the goal is always to act and to believe and to 00:47:34.640 --> 00:47:36.880 speak in accord with God's word. 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:41.680 And the inheritance of sound doctrine must be preserved and defended at 00:47:41.680 --> 00:47:42.480 all costs. 00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:46.640 Because when you lose sight of this stuff, you very quickly lose 00:47:46.640 --> 00:47:51.040 everything. If you stop believing what's in the creeds, you will lose 00:47:51.040 --> 00:47:53.760 God because it is a confession of God. 00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:55.200 So these are treasures. 00:47:55.200 --> 00:48:00.080 And if you're in a body that rejects the creeds, find out 00:48:00.080 --> 00:48:02.000 why. Take a look at the history of the creeds. 00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:04.480 And I hope that you'll find that there was an error that 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:06.880 was made in your church body long in the past. 00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:08.320 And that's going to be in the Reformation. 00:48:08.240 --> 00:48:10.960 we're going to talk about some of those errors. 00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:14.160 But if you're in a place where your church is rejecting some 00:48:14.160 --> 00:48:18.560 of the historic Christian teachings, not Roman Catholic teachings, like you know, 00:48:18.560 --> 00:48:21.600 when when Rome and the East agree, that means it's not Roman 00:48:21.600 --> 00:48:23.440 Catholic by definition. 00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:25.520 It must necessarily be Christian. 00:48:25.520 --> 00:48:28.960 When all Christians in all times and places have agreed with this, 00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:31.840 it's Christian doctrine. 00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:34.960 I believe that your statement was correct. 00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:38.800 That is the only time that we've had a revision to the 00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:43.120 creed that was just the insertion of a word like filioque. 00:48:43.120 --> 00:48:47.360 However, before the handful of Eastern Orthodox listeners we Listeners, we have 00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:48.960 rejoice over my statement. 00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:53.200 The Creeds have been revised a number of times, usually for the 00:48:53.200 --> 00:48:58.000 sake of clarity or to expand a particular point, and that is 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:00.880 the case both with the Creeds as they are used in the 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:06.240 Western Church and as they are used in the East. 00:49:06.240 --> 00:49:12.080 Notably, the East uses a version of the Nicene, actually the Nicene 00:49:12.240 --> 00:49:17.040 Constantinopolitan Creed Creed that was promulgated in 381. 00:49:17.040 --> 00:49:21.680 That's obviously not the first Nicene Creed, because the first Nicene Creed 00:49:21.680 --> 00:49:26.240 was promulgated at the Council of Nicaea in 325. 00:49:26.240 --> 00:49:30.640 And notably, even the section on the Holy Spirit. 00:49:30.640 --> 00:49:35.440 The first version of the Creed as it was promulgated is very 00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:40.720 simple Kai Ace Tahagian Panuma, which is very simple, just means and 00:49:40.720 --> 00:49:42.160 in the Holy Ghost. 00:49:42.160 --> 00:49:43.200 That was it. 00:49:43.200 --> 00:49:46.640 That was all there was to that section of the Creed, which 00:49:46.640 --> 00:49:48.960 says nothing about procession. 00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:52.240 That was added later on. 00:49:52.240 --> 00:49:55.840 In both cases, in the West and in the East. 00:49:55.840 --> 00:50:00.240 And so the very thing the East complains about the West having 00:50:00.240 --> 00:50:03.280 done, the East did at other times. 00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:06.080 The East did with the creeds as they recite them, and they 00:50:06.080 --> 00:50:10.080 were certainly not done according to ecumenical councils because the West was 00:50:10.080 --> 00:50:13.840 not present at those councils. 00:50:14.240 --> 00:50:18.160 tempted to read through the Nicene Creed, just because we have some 00:50:18.160 --> 00:50:21.120 listeners who are not going to be familiar with it, so I 00:50:21.120 --> 00:50:27.520 think I will go ahead and well read, recite the Nicene Creed. 00:50:27.520 --> 00:50:31.120 I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, making God Maker of 00:50:31.120 --> 00:50:35.680 heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible, and in 00:50:35.680 --> 00:50:40.240 one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of 00:50:40.240 --> 00:50:44.720 his Father before all worlds, God of God, light of light, very 00:50:44.720 --> 00:50:50.400 God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with 00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:54.400 the Father, by whom all things were made, who, for us men, 00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:58.080 and for our salvation came down from heaven heaven, and was incarnate 00:50:58.080 --> 00:51:01.920 by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, 00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:05.280 and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. 00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:08.800 He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again 00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:13.200 according to the scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits at the 00:51:13.200 --> 00:51:16.400 right hand of the Father, and he will come again with glory 00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:19.760 to judge both the living and the dead, whose kingdom will have 00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:20.720 no end. 00:51:20.720 --> 00:51:24.080 And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of 00:51:24.080 --> 00:51:28.400 life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the 00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:32.320 Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by 00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:37.280 the prophets, and I believe in one holy Christian and Apostolic Church. 00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:41.280 I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins, and I look 00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:44.240 for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world 00:51:44.240 --> 00:51:45.280 to come. 00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:51.680 Amen. And so as you can see, that is simply a brief 00:51:51.680 --> 00:51:54.400 statement of the Christian religion. 00:51:54.400 --> 00:52:00.560 Now, we have shared elsewhere and before citations to scripture for each 00:52:00.560 --> 00:52:04.960 one of these statements in the Creed, because the creeds, as mentioned, 00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:06.640 come from Scripture. 00:52:06.640 --> 00:52:12.640 They are a simple statement of Scripture meant both to teach Christians 00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:15.920 the faith and to affirm what Christians believe. 00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:19.440 Because when we come together and we recite the creeds, we are 00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:23.840 giving our confession of faith before men, and also before God because 00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:26.080 God is always present. 00:52:26.080 --> 00:52:27.680 That's important. 00:52:27.680 --> 00:52:32.000 That helps us affirm not only that we are one in Christ, 00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:35.440 but what we believe about Christ, what we believe about Scripture, what 00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:39.760 Scripture says to us, the creeds are a vital part of the 00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:41.040 Christian life. 00:52:41.040 --> 00:52:44.640 This is also true, incidentally of things like the small catechism, which 00:52:44.640 --> 00:52:49.440 is just a statement of the Christian religion. 00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:53.760 It is a very brief summary of Christianity. 00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:56.560 It is a great introduction for someone who is new to the 00:52:56.560 --> 00:52:59.600 faith or for children. 00:52:59.600 --> 00:53:03.520 And I'm not just shilling it as a Lutheran, so to speak. 00:53:03.520 --> 00:53:07.920 There are Roman Catholic missionaries who will go out and hand out 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:09.920 the small catechism? 00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:14.880 Because there is no better brief statement of the Christian religion. 00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:19.520 Yes, the creeds as well, of course, but the small catechism goes 00:53:19.520 --> 00:53:21.280 into more detail on certain things. 00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:27.440 The small catechism includes the Ten Commandments and also incidentally the Creed. 00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:31.120 And so even those who are not from the Lutheran tradition will 00:53:31.120 --> 00:53:35.440 hand out the small catechism, because it is the best thing available 00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:38.640 to teach people the basics of the faith, and it was of 00:53:38.640 --> 00:53:43.120 course designed for fathers to teach their wives and their children. 00:53:43.120 --> 00:53:46.960 Primarily, of course, their children, because hopefully their wives would have been 00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:50.400 taught as children by their own fathers. 00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:53.920 To move on, though, to the next controversy, we have two more 00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:59.040 controversies, and really this one leads into, again, because these are all 00:53:59.040 --> 00:54:02.560 leading one into the other, they form a sort of chain. 00:54:02.560 --> 00:54:06.240 This one leads into the next one, and the next one leads 00:54:06.240 --> 00:54:08.720 directly into the Reformation. 00:54:08.720 --> 00:54:13.040 And so the first of these two is the investiture controversy. 00:54:13.040 --> 00:54:15.200 If you know what the term means, you already know what the 00:54:15.200 --> 00:54:18.240 controversy is, and really that's the summary of it. 00:54:18.240 --> 00:54:22.160 This was during the eleventh and the twelfth centuries, the key figures 00:54:22.160 --> 00:54:26.720 involved in this were the Obviously, more than just these two given 00:54:26.720 --> 00:54:29.040 the span of time, these men were not alive for two hundred 00:54:29.040 --> 00:54:32.960 years. But the two key figures, on the one side, Pope Gregory 00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:36.080 VII, he sought reforms in the Church. 00:54:36.080 --> 00:54:39.680 However, in this case the reforms were an assertion of papal authority 00:54:39.680 --> 00:54:43.840 with regard to appointment of bishops and church officials. 00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:47.440 On the other hand, you have Emperor Henry IV. 00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:51.440 He resisted papal authority, he insisted that the Emperor had and should 00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:55.360 retain, because notably the emperor did have at this time this authority, 00:54:55.360 --> 00:54:59.920 and right to appoint and invest church officials. 00:54:59.920 --> 00:55:03.120 Now for those who are unfamiliar with the term, investiture simply refers 00:55:03.120 --> 00:55:06.960 to the formal granting of the symbols of authority to a bishop 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:08.640 or other church official. 00:55:08.640 --> 00:55:16.320 This is extremely important politically, culturally, and with regard to the church. 00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:17.760 The result of this 00:55:18.640 --> 00:55:18.960 was 00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:25.200 subsequent to the issuance of a papal bull, dictatus papai, which is 00:55:25.200 --> 00:55:28.720 just the dictate of the pope, in which he asserted that he 00:55:28.720 --> 00:55:34.400 had exclusive authority to appoint bishops, he excommunicated Henry IV, and Henry 00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:40.480 capitulated. He did penance, otherwise known as the walk to Canosa, in 00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:44.160 ten seventy seven he went and asked the forgiveness of the Pope, 00:55:44.160 --> 00:55:47.120 recognized the authority the Pope had asserted. 00:55:47.120 --> 00:55:48.720 This was officially 00:55:49.600 --> 00:55:54.240 made the policy of the Empire recognized at the Concordat of Worms 00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:57.920 in eleven twenty two, and you may recognize the city name because 00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:01.680 it becomes relevant later on in the Reformation. 00:56:01.680 --> 00:56:06.400 If you aren't familiar with German pronunciation, you may call it Worms. 00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:10.480 This was where the Where the authority of the Pope, as it 00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:15.600 was at the time of the Reformation, really took form, so 1122. 00:56:15.600 --> 00:56:19.680 It takes some centuries before the Reformation takes place, but this is 00:56:19.680 --> 00:56:21.360 where it begins. 00:56:21.680 --> 00:56:23.360 The consequences of this. 00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:25.440 Obviously, the Pope is strengthened. 00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:29.600 However, the Emperor and the Empire were both weakened. 00:56:29.600 --> 00:56:34.640 This becomes relevant politically, culturally, and in a number of other ways 00:56:34.640 --> 00:56:35.040 as well. 00:56:35.040 --> 00:56:37.360 Obviously, it's relevant to the Reformation. 00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:42.800 This saw an increase in the feudalism or the basically proto federalism 00:56:43.120 --> 00:56:45.360 of the Holy Roman Empire. 00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:50.320 It also saw an increase in church state tensions, which obviously grows 00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:55.840 over time and feeds into the Reformation. 00:56:55.840 --> 00:57:02.400 Now this largely affected the secular side of things, the left-hand kingdom. 00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:09.600 The next controversy largely affects the right hand kingdom, although as in 00:57:09.600 --> 00:57:14.080 this previous one, the left-hand kingdom primarily affected, the right hand kingdom 00:57:14.080 --> 00:57:17.360 also affected, so the inverse is true here. 00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:20.800 The right hand kingdom is primarily affected, but the left hand kingdom 00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:22.800 is still deeply involved. 00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:25.840 And this of course is the Avignon papacy so called or the 00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:28.720 Western Schism. 00:57:28.720 --> 00:57:33.840 In thirteen oh nine, Pope Clement V, a Frenchman, that is notable 00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:35.920 here, was elected. 00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:41.040 He moved the papal court from Rome to Avignon, France, somewhat unsurprising 00:57:41.520 --> 00:57:43.200 for a Frenchman, perhaps. 00:57:43.200 --> 00:57:49.120 However, this meant that the French monarchy exercised a significant degree of 00:57:49.120 --> 00:57:51.280 control over the papacy. 00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:53.920 Now you can see how this would be a problem. 00:57:53.920 --> 00:57:59.200 Because earlier on, in the previous controversy, we have the Pope exercising 00:57:59.200 --> 00:58:01.440 authority over the Empire. 00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:05.600 Well now we have specifically the French monarchy exercising authority over the 00:58:05.600 --> 00:58:10.800 Pope, which means that the French monarchy is in essence elevating itself 00:58:11.040 --> 00:58:13.440 above the emperor. 00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:16.080 And that is what the political aspect of this is. 00:58:16.080 --> 00:58:18.960 That's why you have these problems here. 00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:22.880 Now over the course of sixty seven years there are seven popes 00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:25.360 who reside in Avignon. 00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:28.960 Eventually the papal court is moved back to Rome, that is under 00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:31.280 Pope Gregory XII. 00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:36.640 Gregory dies in thirteen seventy eight, and that's where the fun begins 00:58:36.720 --> 00:58:37.760 as it were. 00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:40.400 There's a conclave, as there always is. 00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:44.080 Pope Urban VI, an Italian, is elected. 00:58:44.080 --> 00:58:49.040 Of course he wants to keep the papal court in Rome. 00:58:49.040 --> 00:58:54.400 There is another conclave, a rival conclave, because they some of the 00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:59.200 bishops do not like Pope Urban VI, and so they instead elect 00:58:59.200 --> 00:59:01.360 Pope Clement VII. 00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:05.040 Notably, not a Frenchman as you may have been expecting, still an 00:59:05.040 --> 00:59:07.920 Italian, but a Medici. 00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:11.120 That's relevant for a number of reasons historically, you may be somewhat 00:59:11.120 --> 00:59:13.440 familiar with the Medici's. 00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:16.800 One individual you may not know was in fact a Medici, we'll 00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:20.880 probably get into this more in the latter part of this episode. 00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:26.640 Pope Leo X, who excommunicated Luther, who published the Talmud, also a 00:59:26.640 --> 00:59:29.920 Medici. But anyway, now you have two popes. 00:59:29.920 --> 00:59:33.360 You have Urban VI and Clement the Seventh. 00:59:33.360 --> 00:59:38.400 Different regions in the Empire recognize one or the other. 00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:42.720 At one point they attempt to resolve this by appointing electing a 00:59:42.720 --> 00:59:44.240 third pope. 00:59:44.240 --> 00:59:46.240 The other two don't step down. 00:59:46.240 --> 00:59:48.640 Well now we have three popes. 00:59:48.640 --> 00:59:52.080 So there are councils, other attempts to resolve this, the emperors are 00:59:52.080 --> 00:59:55.120 involved, nobilities involved, some of the kings are involved. 00:59:55.120 --> 00:59:59.760 It's a very real mess that lasts for a very long time. 00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:04.000 Remember this began in thirteen seventy eight, in earnest, as it were, 01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:06.240 it began earlier with than that with the move of the papal 01:00:06.240 --> 01:00:10.000 court to Avignon, but it is not until fourteen fourteen when the 01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:13.840 Council of Constance begins, it lasts for four years to fourteen eighteen, 01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:18.720 and they elect Pope Martin V, that this schism ends. 01:00:18.720 --> 01:00:24.240 So this is a generation of chaos caused by these dissensions in 01:00:24.240 --> 01:00:26.560 the Church. 01:00:26.560 --> 01:00:30.000 The authority of Rome and the and the unity of church and 01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:36.000 the unity of the church are both irretrievably damaged by this. 01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:39.120 That is vitally important to recognize because that is part of what 01:00:39.120 --> 01:00:41.120 sets the stage for the Reformation. 01:00:41.120 --> 01:00:45.200 This is a mere 100 years before the Reformation begins in earnest 01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:47.760 in 1517. 01:00:47.760 --> 01:00:51.040 And so keep in mind, that is the stage on which the 01:00:51.040 --> 01:00:52.720 Reformation plays out. 01:00:52.720 --> 01:00:58.400 However, there is another extremely notable event here, and a man who 01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:05.200 should not go unnoticed, who is condemned at the Council of Constance, 01:01:05.200 --> 01:01:08.880 and that man is named Jan Hus. 01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:11.600 Jan Hus was a Czech reformer. 01:01:11.600 --> 01:01:16.720 He criticized the corrupt practices of the Roman Church, primarily financial and 01:01:16.720 --> 01:01:18.160 moral practices. 01:01:18.160 --> 01:01:21.440 He advocated for the use of the vernacular, which is to say 01:01:21.520 --> 01:01:26.640 the common language, in readings of Scripture and in church services, and 01:01:26.640 --> 01:01:31.920 he advocated for the supremacy of Scripture sola scriptura, as we would 01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:34.960 call it, and do call it today. 01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:39.440 Again, notably that's ablative, not nominative, but we've gone over that previously. 01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:44.560 At this council he is excommunicated and declared a heretic, and acting 01:01:45.040 --> 01:01:50.480 with perhaps uncharacteristic speed, the Roman Church burns him at the stake 01:01:50.480 --> 01:01:53.600 in July of fourteen fifteen. 01:01:53.600 --> 01:01:57.600 And so I will end this section on the controversies in the 01:01:57.600 --> 01:01:58.480 Church with a quote 01:01:59.520 --> 01:02:02.160 from Jan Hus. 01:02:02.160 --> 01:02:06.080 The Duke of Bavaria, who was present at the burning of Jan 01:02:06.080 --> 01:02:10.480 Hus, asked him if he would abjure, as they were actually literally 01:02:10.480 --> 01:02:13.200 building the pyre below him. 01:02:13.200 --> 01:02:17.680 And Hus responded, No, I never preached any doctrine of an evil 01:02:17.680 --> 01:02:21.440 tendency, and what I taught with my lips I now seal with 01:02:21.440 --> 01:02:22.400 my blood. 01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:26.400 He then turned to the executioner and said to him, You are 01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:29.840 now going to burn a goose, but in a century you will 01:02:29.840 --> 01:02:34.560 have a swan which you can neither roast nor boil. 01:02:34.560 --> 01:02:38.320 Now for those of you who are not Lutheran, and even for 01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:43.760 some Lutheran listeners, you've probably not necessarily encountered an explanation of this 01:02:43.760 --> 01:02:45.840 quote before. 01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:49.040 Part of what you have to know is that Hus in the 01:02:49.440 --> 01:02:52.560 Czech dialect means goose. 01:02:52.560 --> 01:02:55.520 He is referring to himself as the goose that is being burned. 01:02:55.520 --> 01:02:57.680 You may have got that just from the context that he's being 01:02:57.680 --> 01:03:00.000 burned and he's talking about a goose being burned. 01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:07.440 But the swan has been interpreted historically as essentially a prophetic statement 01:03:07.600 --> 01:03:11.760 that Luther would be the one who would come along and take 01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:16.240 up this banner of Reformation in the church and carry it forward, 01:03:16.080 --> 01:03:21.520 and try as they might, the popes and others would not succeed 01:03:21.520 --> 01:03:26.640 in burning Luther, because Luther died a natural death. 01:03:26.640 --> 01:03:31.520 He was not burned at the stake, he was not executed. 01:03:31.520 --> 01:03:37.040 He lived out his life, yes, at many times in hiding, essentially 01:03:37.040 --> 01:03:40.000 in captivity, house arrest as it were. 01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:44.880 He lived under the constant threat of being taken in chains to 01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:49.280 Rome and executed, all of these various things, because the most powerful 01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:51.920 men in the world wanted him dead. 01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:54.560 But God kept him alive to die a natural death 01:03:56.320 --> 01:04:00.240 after writing his final confession. 01:04:00.240 --> 01:04:04.560 And so that is the reference there to that swand, that's Luther, 01:04:04.560 --> 01:04:08.240 and they managed neither to roast nor boil him. 01:04:08.560 --> 01:04:11.680 And so as we finally get to the kickoff of the what's 01:04:11.680 --> 01:04:15.120 called the Reformation proper, it was just important for us to set 01:04:15.120 --> 01:04:19.360 the stage that anyone who says, well, the Western Church was in 01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:24.400 perfect harmony and everyone agreed and there was no doctrinal disputes until 01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:27.760 this Luther guy came along and he started causing all this trouble. 01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:30.000 And he was a revolutionary and he wanted to burn the church 01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:30.880 down. No. 01:04:30.880 --> 01:04:33.120 Luther was a doctor of the church. 01:04:33.120 --> 01:04:37.520 When he posted the 95 Theses we're about to get into, he 01:04:37.520 --> 01:04:44.160 was doing his job in addressing controversies in the church. 01:04:44.320 --> 01:04:45.600 He was doing his job. 01:04:46.080 --> 01:04:50.320 Even if he was in error doctrinally, even if maybe procedurally it 01:04:50.320 --> 01:04:55.280 wasn't perfect, he by his vocation was supposed to be doing theology 01:04:55.280 --> 01:04:58.640 public. And the posting of the ninety five theses was a challenge 01:04:58.640 --> 01:04:59.600 to debate. 01:04:59.600 --> 01:05:03.920 The point was that those theses were to be discussed in the 01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:06.000 future in that place. 01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:09.520 It was a public notice that let's go. 01:05:09.520 --> 01:05:12.800 These are what I consider to be matters of dispute. 01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:17.120 Even if he was a heretic, he was, according to his office, 01:05:17.120 --> 01:05:20.240 in the church, supposed to be doing theology. 01:05:20.240 --> 01:05:24.320 He wasn't a peasant, he wasn't some random guy who vandalized the 01:05:24.320 --> 01:05:25.760 church door. 01:05:25.760 --> 01:05:31.200 And so it's important to lay that out historically because as we 01:05:31.200 --> 01:05:35.680 look back on the beginning of the Reformation and the outcome and 01:05:35.680 --> 01:05:37.920 the aftermath of the Reformation, that's usually 01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:41.520 particularly what the Roman Catholics will say, but others say that as 01:05:41.520 --> 01:05:44.160 well. Like, you know, you know, they won't say everything was just 01:05:44.160 --> 01:05:48.000 hunky dory because they know the councils prove what an absurdity that 01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:52.320 is, but they will lie about the degree of equanimity that occurred 01:05:53.040 --> 01:05:54.320 within the church. 01:05:54.320 --> 01:05:57.600 For example, you know, one of the most common claims is that 01:05:57.600 --> 01:06:00.320 Luther removed books from the Bible. 01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:02.080 He changed the canon. 01:06:02.080 --> 01:06:05.280 The fact is that there was no canon of Scripture in the 01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:09.360 West until Trent declared it, three decades later. 01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:12.160 And I believe I waited until after he was dead. 01:06:12.160 --> 01:06:16.240 So it wasn't until Trent that there was an official canon when 01:06:16.240 --> 01:06:22.400 Luther discussed which books should be in scripture, he was again doing 01:06:22.400 --> 01:06:23.120 his job. 01:06:23.120 --> 01:06:27.920 He was doing what theologians had been doing since the earliest days. 01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:33.200 The there was a generally accepted list of books that for some 01:06:33.200 --> 01:06:36.160 it included the Apocrypha and for others it didn't. 01:06:36.160 --> 01:06:40.720 When he engaged in the theological debate, as a theologian, saying, I 01:06:40.720 --> 01:06:43.280 think that there's a good argument for these books and I think 01:06:43.280 --> 01:06:47.440 there's a good argument against these books, he was doing his job. 01:06:47.440 --> 01:06:51.200 And so I hope that that context will be carried through everything 01:06:51.200 --> 01:06:55.920 that happens after, because if you portray him as a renegade and 01:06:55.920 --> 01:06:59.280 a rebel and just a bomb thrower, then yeah, he caused a 01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:00.560 bunch of trouble. 01:07:00.560 --> 01:07:05.680 If, on the other hand, you view him as a Roman Catholic 01:07:05.680 --> 01:07:10.720 priest who was doing his job by discussing theology according to his 01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:12.720 do vocation, then 01:07:13.680 --> 01:07:17.280 what happened afterwards takes on a different tenor. 01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:19.840 And all this has to be couched in, as Corey said, the 01:07:19.840 --> 01:07:21.920 political terms of the day. 01:07:21.920 --> 01:07:25.280 You know, one of the disputes that I mentioned earlier, somebody was 01:07:25.440 --> 01:07:31.520 arguing about cathedrals on Twitter, the difference between a twelfth century cathedral 01:07:31.520 --> 01:07:36.000 bit and m built under Roman Catholic authority and, for example, the 01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:41.440 basilica that was also built by Rome, is that when the basilica 01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:45.840 was built, it was built with money that John Tatzel was extorting 01:07:45.840 --> 01:07:50.080 from the German people on behalf of the Italian people to build 01:07:50.080 --> 01:07:53.920 a new giant cathedral specifically for the Pope. 01:07:53.920 --> 01:07:56.640 It was so it wasn't a cathedral in a city or a 01:07:56.640 --> 01:07:59.680 region, it was a new throne for the Pope, and it was 01:07:59.680 --> 01:08:05.200 being used it was being built with extortionate money derived from an 01:08:05.200 --> 01:08:06.640 ethnic target. 01:08:06.640 --> 01:08:08.800 That's what literally happened. 01:08:08.800 --> 01:08:09.120 So 01:08:10.160 --> 01:08:13.120 I don't know if you've ever been on a civil jury before, 01:08:13.120 --> 01:08:18.960 but when you decide civil liability versus criminal liability. 01:08:18.960 --> 01:08:22.320 If you say that you know the defendant is guilty of X 01:08:22.480 --> 01:08:27.600 whatever, you also assign a percentage of guilt that they bear for 01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:29.280 whatever negative outcome there was. 01:08:29.280 --> 01:08:31.040 So I was 18 years old. 01:08:31.040 --> 01:08:35.920 I was on a jury for a a civil trial that involved 01:08:35.920 --> 01:08:38.000 a woman involved in a car accident. 01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:43.840 She caused injuries to someone else and the dispute before the court 01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:48.960 was was she guilty of causing the car wreck negligently and what 01:08:49.280 --> 01:08:53.840 degree of remuneration did she owe to the victim? 01:08:54.720 --> 01:08:58.080 And so as a jury, we found both that she was guilty, 01:08:58.080 --> 01:09:00.640 and I think we found that she was like 50 or 60 01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:01.760 percent liable. 01:09:01.760 --> 01:09:04.640 So which meant that the total amount of the bills that were 01:09:04.640 --> 01:09:08.720 presented we held her liable for about half of it. 01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:12.080 That sort of percentage allocation is something that I think is is 01:09:12.080 --> 01:09:17.440 a useful idea, kind of a Bayesian approach to take to when 01:09:17.440 --> 01:09:21.600 you're looking in history prior to the Reformation, how much of what 01:09:21.600 --> 01:09:27.280 Rome was doing was attributable to the Pope, to the Magisterium, to 01:09:27.280 --> 01:09:31.280 tradition, and how much of it was attributable to them simply being 01:09:31.280 --> 01:09:32.720 the Western Church. 01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:35.360 Because remember Catholic means of the whole. 01:09:35.360 --> 01:09:38.080 Catholic is a small C word. 01:09:38.080 --> 01:09:40.720 It's why you you'll never hear me call someone a Catholic as 01:09:40.720 --> 01:09:41.760 best I can help. 01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:44.880 I will always call them Roman Catholic, or if I'm being more 01:09:44.880 --> 01:09:47.200 brief, Romanist or Papist. 01:09:47.200 --> 01:09:50.880 Those are you know slightly more biting terms, but they're not meant 01:09:50.880 --> 01:09:54.320 hostily. I'm just not going to call you Catholic because that means 01:09:54.320 --> 01:09:58.240 universal. That means that you're the only Christians in by definition, I 01:09:58.080 --> 01:10:01.040 can't be Christian because I don't have the Pope. 01:10:01.040 --> 01:10:05.680 So if Catholic means Roman Catholic and I am outside of the 01:10:05.680 --> 01:10:08.000 whole, then that means I'm outside of scripture. 01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:10.640 I'm outside of the church. 01:10:10.640 --> 01:10:14.160 I must necessarily reject that because I reject the Pope. 01:10:14.160 --> 01:10:17.760 You know, the good ones were in line with the Western tradition. 01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:21.440 The bad ones I don't have to worry about because they weren't 01:10:21.440 --> 01:10:22.240 my Pope. 01:10:22.240 --> 01:10:25.680 They were men who were in a position who made heirs. 01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:30.160 As Corey says, we're gonna get to Leo X, really bad pope, 01:10:30.160 --> 01:10:32.400 terrible pope, evil pope. 01:10:32.400 --> 01:10:36.960 And so when he did things, Roman Catholics must by definition 01:10:37.840 --> 01:10:40.720 say, Well, yeah, I have to side with Leo X because he 01:10:40.720 --> 01:10:42.160 was the Pope. 01:10:42.160 --> 01:10:44.800 The point of the Reformation is you don't have to side with 01:10:44.800 --> 01:10:45.520 a man. 01:10:45.520 --> 01:10:47.040 You have to side with God. 01:10:47.040 --> 01:10:51.280 And if the man who's put in charge doesn't side with God, 01:10:51.280 --> 01:10:53.440 then you get a new man. 01:10:53.440 --> 01:10:58.400 That's that was the entire premise of the Reformation, not overthrow, not 01:10:58.400 --> 01:11:02.160 revolution, but when we are faced with controversies, let us Let us 01:11:02.160 --> 01:11:03.280 be faithful. 01:11:03.280 --> 01:11:08.480 And when the edifices, when the the dominant forces in the places 01:11:08.480 --> 01:11:13.600 of high power say no, we will not relinquish relinquish control, we 01:11:13.600 --> 01:11:17.840 insist on being evil, then that puts us today in the same 01:11:17.840 --> 01:11:19.360 boat that Luther is in. 01:11:19.360 --> 01:11:22.560 If the Pope is evil, he's still Christian. 01:11:22.560 --> 01:11:25.440 And if that means he doesn't get to be Roman Catholic anymore, 01:11:25.440 --> 01:11:26.720 well he's still Christian. 01:11:26.720 --> 01:11:29.760 And it doesn't really matter what the label is, it matters what 01:11:29.760 --> 01:11:31.040 scripture says. 01:11:31.040 --> 01:11:36.160 So as the rem as the Reformation kicks off, that is ground 01:11:36.160 --> 01:11:39.280 zero. What is a man supposed to do when he's being a 01:11:39.280 --> 01:11:43.680 faithful Christian, even in the face of false teachings or disputes. 01:11:43.680 --> 01:11:48.880 You know, the false teaching emerged after the dispute was rejected with 01:11:49.440 --> 01:11:50.720 threat of execution. 01:11:50.720 --> 01:11:52.720 They made him an outlaw, so they're gonna kill him. 01:11:52.720 --> 01:11:56.000 Well, okay, that's pretty good indication of which side they're on. 01:11:56.000 --> 01:11:59.040 And that was an appeal to their authority, not an appeal to 01:11:59.040 --> 01:12:03.920 Scripture. Because of course Luther was arguing from Scripture, and that was 01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:04.880 the problem. 01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:07.840 We see that in our churches today, and for exactly the same 01:12:07.840 --> 01:12:08.720 reason. 01:12:09.120 --> 01:12:13.840 And so the history of the Reformation, the timeline of the Reformation 01:12:14.080 --> 01:12:19.840 really is a timeline of Luther's life beginning in fifteen seventeen. 01:12:19.840 --> 01:12:24.640 His early life is less relevant, although obviously there's some importance as 01:12:24.640 --> 01:12:28.000 to why he became a monk, what he encountered as a monk, 01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:31.920 etc. But we're going to start in fifteen seventeen. 01:12:31.920 --> 01:12:36.240 This isn't to discount that there were other reformers, particularly the reform 01:12:36.400 --> 01:12:40.000 tradition was also taking shape at this time. 01:12:40.000 --> 01:12:43.760 But Luther began the Reformation in earnest, and Luther is the one 01:12:43.760 --> 01:12:44.960 who carried it forward. 01:12:44.960 --> 01:12:46.800 God used him as his tool 01:12:48.320 --> 01:12:52.320 in this particular task. 01:12:52.320 --> 01:12:58.240 And so thirty-one october fifteen seventeen, he posts the ninety-five theses, as 01:12:58.240 --> 01:12:59.440 was mentioned. 01:12:59.440 --> 01:13:03.360 Notably, he posted them in Latin. 01:13:03.360 --> 01:13:07.760 These were not something that he intended for the common man. 01:13:07.760 --> 01:13:11.120 These were not something that he intended to be taken and published 01:13:11.120 --> 01:13:17.600 everywhere. This was an invitation to debate, to discuss theological problems, to 01:13:17.600 --> 01:13:22.400 discuss doctrine and dogma, and he even invited in the wording of 01:13:22.400 --> 01:13:25.040 the theses the Pope to respond to these should he Should he 01:13:25.040 --> 01:13:26.240 care to do so. 01:13:26.240 --> 01:13:28.240 But again they were in Latin. 01:13:28.240 --> 01:13:30.240 They were not in the vernacular. 01:13:30.240 --> 01:13:34.320 They were rapidly translated into the vernacular, although not by Luther, they 01:13:34.320 --> 01:13:37.840 were translated by others, and so that is part of what sparked 01:13:37.840 --> 01:13:43.920 the Reformation because these spread, far and wide, not Luther's original intent. 01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:46.400 But God had other plans. 01:13:46.400 --> 01:13:50.400 And so we have the spark of the Reformation here in fifteen 01:13:50.400 --> 01:13:55.520 seventeen. In fifteen eighteen, things moving actually fairly quickly here, although they 01:13:55.520 --> 01:14:01.520 move much more slowly later on, in April of fifteen eighteen, Luther 01:14:01.520 --> 01:14:06.960 meets in Augsburg with Cardinal Cachetan, who demands that he recant, presents 01:14:06.960 --> 01:14:08.240 him with a bunch of his works. 01:14:08.240 --> 01:14:12.480 Luther, of course, says that he cannot recant unless something can be 01:14:12.480 --> 01:14:16.480 shown to disagree with the Word of God. 01:14:16.480 --> 01:14:22.960 In 1520, Luther is excommunicated, and that is 01:14:24.480 --> 01:14:29.520 with the papal bull of Exerge Domine, that's when Pope Leo X 01:14:29.840 --> 01:14:32.720 condemns Luther's teachings. 01:14:32.720 --> 01:14:36.480 Exerg Domine is a rise, O Lord, he's invoking God as saying 01:14:36.480 --> 01:14:39.280 that God is on his side because he claims to be the 01:14:39.280 --> 01:14:41.920 vicar of Christ on earth. 01:14:41.920 --> 01:14:46.000 Luther, for his part, in that same year publishes three of his 01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:51.840 key treatises with regard to Christian doctrine, but what Luther specifically is 01:14:51.840 --> 01:14:54.880 teaching, and those are to the Christian nobility of the German nation, 01:14:54.880 --> 01:14:59.120 the Babylonian captivity of the Church, and on the Freedom of a 01:14:59.120 --> 01:15:04.560 Christian. In the following year, in April, on the seventeenth, we have 01:15:04.560 --> 01:15:05.920 the Diet of Vorms. 01:15:05.920 --> 01:15:09.360 We mentioned that city earlier, here is where it comes up again. 01:15:09.360 --> 01:15:17.280 This This is where Luther most famously, before both church and empire, 01:15:17.280 --> 01:15:21.360 makes his statement Here I stand I can do no other. 01:15:21.360 --> 01:15:26.080 You may have heard it in German Hirstehe Kandstandes. 01:15:26.080 --> 01:15:29.680 In May of that year, the Edict of Worms is issued. 01:15:29.680 --> 01:15:34.480 This is where Luther is officially declared an outlaw and a heretic. 01:15:36.080 --> 01:15:38.480 Now here I have to note something historically. 01:15:38.480 --> 01:15:43.920 I was tempted before to mention some legal niceties with regard to 01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:47.040 comparative negligence, but it's not really the place for that. 01:15:47.040 --> 01:15:50.880 Here, however, we have to make a legal comment. 01:15:50.880 --> 01:15:55.760 Because outlaw means something specifically in the historical context. 01:15:55.760 --> 01:16:00.960 A man who is declared an outlaw is outside the law. 01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:04.720 This is something that was carried over from ancient law, particularly in 01:16:04.720 --> 01:16:08.240 this case, of course, Roman law, perhaps not surprising for the holy 01:16:08.240 --> 01:16:09.760 Roman Empire. 01:16:09.760 --> 01:16:14.480 A man who is outside the law has no legal protections. 01:16:14.480 --> 01:16:17.680 He may be killed by anyone, that is what it means, and 01:16:17.680 --> 01:16:21.120 in fact it heavily implies he should be killed by anyone who 01:16:21.120 --> 01:16:23.280 encounters him who can do so. 01:16:23.280 --> 01:16:26.880 This is a death sentence on Luther. 01:16:26.880 --> 01:16:31.280 That is what this edict actually says. 01:16:31.280 --> 01:16:36.400 Thankfully, for those of us who are Protestant, thankfully for the Church, 01:16:36.400 --> 01:16:40.400 Luther has some friends in high places, and so he is whisked 01:16:40.400 --> 01:16:45.760 away to Vartburg Castle, where he is held in safety as Junker 01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:51.360 Jorg, Knight George, and he translates the New Testament while he is 01:16:51.360 --> 01:16:53.200 there. So he is being very productive. 01:16:53.200 --> 01:16:57.440 He in fact does that in a rather short period of time. 01:16:57.440 --> 01:17:00.960 And so this, of course, protects him from the emperor and the 01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:04.400 pope, both of whom at this point would like to kill him. 01:17:04.400 --> 01:17:09.360 Because the emperor, in this case, a Spaniard, sides with the Italian 01:17:09.360 --> 01:17:14.000 Pope. Again, remember Leo the Tenth is a Medici. 01:17:14.000 --> 01:17:18.560 And so Luther in hiding for three years in Vartburg Castle. 01:17:18.720 --> 01:17:24.000 In the meantime, you have objections from some of the primarily Germanic 01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:28.320 princes with regard to the treatment of Luther, the way that Lutheran 01:17:28.320 --> 01:17:32.400 doctrine is being handled, the way the Church is addressing these doctrinal 01:17:32.800 --> 01:17:38.080 disagreements and all of these various related things. 01:17:38.080 --> 01:17:44.160 This eventuates in there was an earlier declaration at the first diet 01:17:44.160 --> 01:17:47.040 of Speyer. 01:17:47.040 --> 01:17:52.000 Basically early on one of the solutions, the timeline doesn't matter as 01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:54.400 much, but it's important to keep in mind 01:17:55.360 --> 01:17:58.000 what happened and the order in which they happened. 01:17:58.000 --> 01:18:01.920 So the timeline in that sense, but not the specific years. 01:18:01.920 --> 01:18:07.120 Earlier on, there was an attempt to compromise, and this was partly 01:18:07.120 --> 01:18:11.680 driven by the fact that the Emperor needed the German princes on 01:18:11.680 --> 01:18:16.880 his side, and the electors and others in the Holy Roman Empire, 01:18:16.880 --> 01:18:21.680 because he was currently attempting to thwart Muslim invasions, and so there 01:18:21.680 --> 01:18:25.200 were considerations of a political nature, and so he needed these men 01:18:25.200 --> 01:18:28.000 on his side in order to send him troops. 01:18:28.000 --> 01:18:32.880 And so one of the early interim solutions was 01:18:34.320 --> 01:18:36.800 what we today would basically call call 01:18:37.760 --> 01:18:42.000 the religion of the head of state is the religion of the 01:18:42.000 --> 01:18:47.840 state. How that worked was a particular prince who controlled a particular 01:18:47.840 --> 01:18:55.280 area Co, I'm Lutheran, my territory is Lutheran, or I'm Roman Catholic, 01:18:55.280 --> 01:18:59.040 my territory is Roman Catholic, and those who did not want to 01:18:59.040 --> 01:19:02.800 be part of that church could move to the next territory over. 01:19:04.800 --> 01:19:07.760 That was the initial compromise. 01:19:07.760 --> 01:19:12.000 The Emperor went back on his word, which was both obviously a 01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:16.160 breach of his word and against imperial law, but he went back 01:19:16.160 --> 01:19:20.320 on his word, he affirmed the Edict of Vorms, the condemnation of 01:19:20.320 --> 01:19:21.680 Luther, and 01:19:22.560 --> 01:19:26.720 basically said that no, the entirety of the Empire is subject to 01:19:26.720 --> 01:19:29.600 the See of Rome, is subject to the Pope, you may not 01:19:29.600 --> 01:19:32.640 have your religion in your territory. 01:19:32.640 --> 01:19:37.680 And so in 1529, at the second Diet of Speyer, that is 01:19:37.680 --> 01:19:40.960 where we get the term Protestant. 01:19:41.120 --> 01:19:47.520 Because a handful of German princes protest against this mistreatment at the 01:19:47.520 --> 01:19:49.680 hands of the emperor. 01:19:49.680 --> 01:19:53.680 They protest against the Emperor going back on his word, and not 01:19:53.680 --> 01:19:57.920 permitting them to have their own churches in their own lands. 01:19:59.760 --> 01:20:04.400 The next year, 1530, this is sort of where things start to 01:20:04.400 --> 01:20:06.400 get formalized. 01:20:06.400 --> 01:20:10.960 Yes, we have edicts and we have excommunication and papal bulls and 01:20:10.960 --> 01:20:13.280 all of these various things flying back and forth. 01:20:13.280 --> 01:20:18.160 But where things start to really take solid form is 1530, and 01:20:18.160 --> 01:20:20.400 that's with the Augsburg Confession. 01:20:20.480 --> 01:20:23.600 This is where the Lutheran Princes, and yes it was the Lutheran 01:20:23.600 --> 01:20:29.920 Princes, written, of course, by Melanchthon and obviously a great deal of 01:20:29.920 --> 01:20:34.800 help from Luther, but written by Lutheran theologians, and then presented by 01:20:34.800 --> 01:20:41.280 Lutheran princes to the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at Augsburg. 01:20:41.280 --> 01:20:46.720 This was presented as a formal statement of what Lutherans believe. 01:20:46.720 --> 01:20:50.160 There were other confessions also presented at this time. 01:20:50.160 --> 01:20:55.280 There was an exchange the Roman Church responded with a confutation. 01:20:55.280 --> 01:20:58.320 Notably they would not initially give the Lutherans a copy of this 01:20:58.400 --> 01:20:59.920 again against imperial law. 01:20:59.920 --> 01:21:04.720 Law. The German princes happened to have scribes who were very good 01:21:04.720 --> 01:21:08.000 at shorthand, though, and so we have several copies of it, word 01:21:08.000 --> 01:21:11.760 for word, which was convenient, because we responded to that, in this 01:21:11.760 --> 01:21:15.040 case, I mean we as Lutherans, responded to that with the Apology 01:21:15.040 --> 01:21:19.680 of the Augsburg Confession, which was in large part a refutation of 01:21:19.680 --> 01:21:23.440 the things that the Roman Church had put forth in the confutation. 01:21:23.840 --> 01:21:28.160 Notably, the confutation is so bad that Rome doesn't even really speak 01:21:28.160 --> 01:21:28.960 of it these days. 01:21:28.960 --> 01:21:30.720 It's kind of been shoved under the rug. 01:21:30.720 --> 01:21:32.240 It was not a good document. 01:21:32.240 --> 01:21:33.360 It was poorly written. 01:21:33.360 --> 01:21:36.160 It said things that were clearly heretical. 01:21:36.160 --> 01:21:39.440 It was just Rome doing everything they could to condemn the Lutherans, 01:21:39.440 --> 01:21:44.480 these upstart German princes who would not obey the See of Rome. 01:21:44.480 --> 01:21:50.000 But 1530, Augsburg, with the Augsburg Confession. 01:21:50.000 --> 01:21:55.760 That is really where Lutheran doctrine, where the statement of the Lutheran 01:21:55.760 --> 01:21:59.600 faith is formalized, and the first real statement of what it means 01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:01.600 to be a Protestant. 01:22:01.600 --> 01:22:04.960 What it means to be opposed to what the Roman Church had 01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:09.520 become, not the Roman Church per se, because frequently in our confessions 01:22:09.520 --> 01:22:13.760 as Lutherans we affirm that we would prefer to retain church government, 01:22:13.760 --> 01:22:17.680 as it stood, if only the popes would be open to reform, 01:22:17.680 --> 01:22:20.800 open to listening to the word of God. 01:22:20.800 --> 01:22:24.080 But this is the statement of what Lutherans believe, this is the 01:22:24.080 --> 01:22:28.160 initial statement of Protestantism. 01:22:28.160 --> 01:22:33.440 Now, it's worth noting, historically, this was not called just for the 01:22:33.440 --> 01:22:37.360 sake of religious issues, it was partly that. 01:22:37.360 --> 01:22:41.520 But it was also called because again, the Muslims were invading Europe 01:22:41.520 --> 01:22:45.680 at this time, as if that wasn't the case, basically for centuries, 01:22:45.680 --> 01:22:47.680 but they were doing it in earnest. 01:22:47.680 --> 01:22:52.000 And so the emperor had a very real problem on his hands. 01:22:52.000 --> 01:22:56.240 He could not have this kind of disagreement at home, and also 01:22:56.320 --> 01:22:59.280 have to wage wars abroad, or really not even abroad at this 01:22:59.280 --> 01:23:02.320 point, but on the fringes of his own empire. 01:23:02.320 --> 01:23:07.360 And so he wanted, for his part, to resolve these issues. 01:23:07.360 --> 01:23:10.640 He was hoping that there would be a resolution at Augsburg so 01:23:10.640 --> 01:23:13.280 that they could move forward together. 01:23:13.280 --> 01:23:18.880 That is unfortunately not what happened because Rome was entirely unwilling to 01:23:18.880 --> 01:23:23.360 hear anything, to discuss anything, it was one hundred percent they simply 01:23:23.360 --> 01:23:26.160 wanted to burn Luther at the stake. 01:23:26.160 --> 01:23:30.080 And so that led to increased dissensions, this would lead to later 01:23:30.080 --> 01:23:33.760 political strife, and in fact the thirty years war and other things, 01:23:33.760 --> 01:23:36.720 but that's not the point of this episode. 01:23:36.720 --> 01:23:41.680 The last two points on this particular timeline would be 1534 is 01:23:41.680 --> 01:23:45.920 when Luther completes the translation of the entire Bible into German. 01:23:45.920 --> 01:23:49.200 Earlier he had completed the New Testament, he did that very quickly. 01:23:49.200 --> 01:23:51.760 The Old Testament took a little longer. 01:23:51.760 --> 01:23:54.240 It's a lot longer, so of course it did. 01:23:54.240 --> 01:23:59.360 And then in fifteen forty six, Luther dies in Islaben, dying a 01:23:59.360 --> 01:24:05.440 natural death after suffering a stroke, shortly after preaching his last sermon. 01:24:05.440 --> 01:24:10.320 And as mentioned, Luther dies in fifteen forty six. 01:24:10.320 --> 01:24:12.720 Trent does not finish 01:24:13.600 --> 01:24:16.000 up until after Luther is dead. 01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:20.080 They wait until he is dead to make their response, as it 01:24:20.080 --> 01:24:21.840 were, to his doctrine. 01:24:24.560 --> 01:24:28.800 And notably on the subject of the Apocrypha and the canon, that 01:24:28.960 --> 01:24:32.480 Luther's translation included the Apocrypha. 01:24:32.480 --> 01:24:35.920 He simply put it where it had been historically, at the end 01:24:35.920 --> 01:24:38.160 of the Old Testament, before the New Testament. 01:24:38.480 --> 01:24:41.200 He translated every word of it because it was an important part 01:24:41.200 --> 01:24:42.480 of church history. 01:24:42.480 --> 01:24:46.480 What he believed it was not, and what many believers going back 01:24:46.480 --> 01:24:50.800 to prior to the days of Christ, was that the Apocrypha was 01:24:50.800 --> 01:24:51.920 not inspired. 01:24:51.920 --> 01:24:55.440 Incidentally, the Apocrypha itself says it's not inspired. 01:24:55.440 --> 01:24:58.160 One of the early things it says is that all the prophets 01:24:58.160 --> 01:24:58.640 were dead. 01:24:58.640 --> 01:25:00.240 Malachi was the last prophet. 01:25:00.240 --> 01:25:03.200 There were no more prophets until John the Baptist. 01:25:03.200 --> 01:25:09.200 So the intertestamental period was a period of silence from God. 01:25:09.200 --> 01:25:12.080 But that didn't mean that the Jews stopped existing or that they 01:25:12.080 --> 01:25:15.600 stopped recording their history, and that's exactly what the Apocrypha was. 01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:18.880 It was recorded in Greek because again they'd forgotten Hebrew. 01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:21.520 It was a testament of their life and times. 01:25:21.520 --> 01:25:26.880 It is a largely, almost completely accurate historical record. 01:25:26.880 --> 01:25:30.960 There are a few errors, there's a bit of false doctrine, but 01:25:30.960 --> 01:25:36.080 it is generally commended by Christians to this day as something that 01:25:36.080 --> 01:25:37.120 is useful. 01:25:37.120 --> 01:25:38.480 And I think one of the 01:25:40.160 --> 01:25:43.680 one of the needless matters of antagonism 01:25:44.880 --> 01:25:48.880 between those who hold to the 73 books and those who hold 01:25:48.880 --> 01:25:50.640 to the 66 is that 01:25:52.480 --> 01:25:55.120 A, it was a matter of historical dispute. 01:25:55.440 --> 01:26:01.200 the Jews in Jesus day did not recognize the Apocrypha as inspired. 01:26:01.200 --> 01:26:04.320 It is quoted in Scripture because it was part of their life 01:26:04.320 --> 01:26:08.880 and times, just as their pagan poets and philosophers quoted in scripture. 01:26:08.880 --> 01:26:14.480 That does not accord them the station of inspiration by God. 01:26:14.480 --> 01:26:16.320 That means that it was a historical record. 01:26:16.320 --> 01:26:21.040 So those quotations don't automatically elevate something to scripture or the Bible 01:26:21.040 --> 01:26:23.440 would be way too short because there's a lot of stuff in 01:26:23.440 --> 01:26:28.560 there that is incorporated by reference because it existed at the time, 01:26:28.560 --> 01:26:31.600 not because God breathed it out. 01:26:31.600 --> 01:26:35.760 I think that when particularly Roman Catholics and and Lutherans and then 01:26:35.760 --> 01:26:37.840 others are viewing these things. 01:26:37.840 --> 01:26:40.160 The tough part about looking at 01:26:41.280 --> 01:26:45.680 the time of the Reformation is that when you distill it solely 01:26:45.680 --> 01:26:48.080 down to the doctrinal disputes 01:26:49.280 --> 01:26:50.560 you leave out 01:26:51.520 --> 01:26:55.920 the men, you leave out the human beings, you leave out the 01:26:55.920 --> 01:27:00.800 princes and all these these men of power, some of whom are 01:27:00.800 --> 01:27:06.160 trying to be faithful Christians, some of whom were being power hungry. 01:27:06.160 --> 01:27:07.920 When is that not the case? 01:27:07.920 --> 01:27:11.280 That that's a that's such a tepid statement because even more so 01:27:11.280 --> 01:27:14.880 than Muslim invasion, that is true in every time and place. 01:27:15.360 --> 01:27:18.960 But when such things are occurring, when history is continuing to play 01:27:18.960 --> 01:27:23.360 out as it always does, that has an effect on what's happening. 01:27:23.360 --> 01:27:28.800 You know, when Corey seamlessly slid into calling them Lutherans, they were 01:27:28.800 --> 01:27:33.280 called Lutherans as a disparaging term of derision. 01:27:33.280 --> 01:27:35.840 Basically, they were treated as a cult. 01:27:35.840 --> 01:27:39.600 They were said, this is this these Lutherans, they're garbage, they're completely 01:27:39.600 --> 01:27:40.800 outside the church. 01:27:40.800 --> 01:27:42.320 This is a cult that has emerged. 01:27:42.320 --> 01:27:44.160 They have nothing to do with the Christian faith. 01:27:44.160 --> 01:27:45.120 It was branding. 01:27:45.120 --> 01:27:46.560 It was framing. 01:27:46.560 --> 01:27:46.880 And 01:27:47.760 --> 01:27:51.600 the reformers on the Lutheran side went along with it. 01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:53.920 They basically gave Rome the finger, said, You want to call us 01:27:54.000 --> 01:27:55.680 Lutherans? Okay, we're Lutherans. 01:27:55.680 --> 01:27:56.480 What now? 01:27:56.480 --> 01:27:57.600 What next? 01:27:57.600 --> 01:28:00.240 Because they didn't have much else. 01:28:01.600 --> 01:28:06.160 I think it's important to look to those days in those terms 01:28:06.240 --> 01:28:07.200 because the 01:28:08.800 --> 01:28:14.080 going back to the problem of papal primacy w when you talk 01:28:14.080 --> 01:28:18.080 to Roman Catholic they will have all sorts of outs for explaining 01:28:18.080 --> 01:28:21.920 why a Pope can be evil, but then things can still go 01:28:21.920 --> 01:28:23.520 right. I can agree with that. 01:28:23.520 --> 01:28:25.600 I think any Christian can agree with that. 01:28:25.600 --> 01:28:29.760 I think the Cope is that it's very difficult for an internally 01:28:29.920 --> 01:28:34.960 consistent Roman Catholic to deal with their own history. 01:28:35.360 --> 01:28:38.400 Because I don't I don't think it's possible to be to be 01:28:38.400 --> 01:28:41.760 internally consistent as a Roman Catholic. 01:28:41.760 --> 01:28:42.080 And 01:28:44.320 --> 01:28:48.720 as we start looking kind of today at the body of folks 01:28:48.720 --> 01:28:51.760 who listen to Stone Choir and agree with some what we say 01:28:51.840 --> 01:28:54.000 again, we have a lot of Roman Catholic listeners. 01:28:54.000 --> 01:28:56.320 I very much appreciate it. 01:28:56.320 --> 01:29:00.080 One of one of our listeners who has a big podcast was 01:29:00.080 --> 01:29:03.520 tagged on a I was tagged on a thread he was in 01:29:03.600 --> 01:29:06.560 where he had said something disparaging about soul scripture. 01:29:06.560 --> 01:29:11.120 Yeah, basically just kind of the standard Catholic view of scripture alone. 01:29:11.360 --> 01:29:14.240 And somebody else who listened, probably to both of us, tagged me 01:29:14.240 --> 01:29:15.360 in to get me to argue with him. 01:29:15.360 --> 01:29:19.760 And I didn't I wasn't interested in arguing because why why would 01:29:19.760 --> 01:29:21.520 I argue with someone who's well informed? 01:29:21.520 --> 01:29:22.720 He's a smart guy. 01:29:22.720 --> 01:29:24.320 I'm not going to change his mind. 01:29:24.320 --> 01:29:26.240 And so I thought about it for a while. 01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:32.560 what can believers do today when we have such disagreements? 01:29:32.560 --> 01:29:37.040 I'm not going to change anybody's mind by at least someone who's 01:29:37.040 --> 01:29:42.800 well informed, by going back to the 16th century well of arguments, 01:29:42.800 --> 01:29:47.600 because they have already inherited all of the counter-arguments to the arguments 01:29:47.600 --> 01:29:49.440 that I've inherited, and vice versa. 01:29:49.440 --> 01:29:53.600 Like these are sixteenth century fights, they were hammered out. 01:29:53.600 --> 01:29:56.160 Here you go, pass down through the centuries. 01:29:56.160 --> 01:29:58.960 We have to be a bitter enmity with each other forever. 01:29:58.960 --> 01:30:01.760 That's kind of our inheritance. 01:30:01.760 --> 01:30:03.280 I don't want that to be the case. 01:30:03.280 --> 01:30:06.560 I don't think anyone really wants that to be the case. 01:30:06.560 --> 01:30:12.240 So the question is, what is the workaround for the post-Reformation world 01:30:12.400 --> 01:30:16.400 where we have these wild disagreements? 01:30:17.280 --> 01:30:19.760 And as I was thinking about, you know, if if I were 01:30:19.760 --> 01:30:22.320 going to respond on that thread, which I didn't bother because I'm 01:30:22.400 --> 01:30:25.840 I don't I don't need to defend solo scripture, but I thought, 01:30:25.840 --> 01:30:30.000 what is an end run that I can do rhetorically around any 01:30:30.000 --> 01:30:32.480 argument that someone's heard before. 01:30:32.480 --> 01:30:36.480 And I realize the case is Stone Choir. 01:30:36.480 --> 01:30:40.160 Because here's a guy who is Roman Catholic, he's very knowledgeable, very 01:30:40.160 --> 01:30:43.760 intelligent, very devout, agrees with some of what we say. 01:30:43.760 --> 01:30:48.320 How is that possible for a Roman Catholic to agree with two 01:30:48.320 --> 01:30:53.280 Lutheran guys who have nothing but enmity for the Pope today, and 01:30:53.280 --> 01:30:57.440 I'm sure he does too, certainly Bergoglio is is cancerous by almost 01:30:57.440 --> 01:30:59.040 everyone's estimation. 01:30:59.040 --> 01:31:01.920 And those who like him are not Christian. 01:31:01.920 --> 01:31:02.800 Full stop. 01:31:02.800 --> 01:31:06.080 You cannot be Christian and think that Bergoglio is 01:31:06.960 --> 01:31:09.760 Christian. Never mind a Pope. 01:31:09.760 --> 01:31:13.120 Like he's just he is so far beyond the pale, but he's 01:31:13.040 --> 01:31:16.640 such a Jesuit viper that he's moving the ball much further than 01:31:16.640 --> 01:31:17.680 anyone has before. 01:31:17.680 --> 01:31:19.520 And that's why Satan sent him. 01:31:19.520 --> 01:31:22.880 And so I really feel for a Roman Catholic listeners because 01:31:25.440 --> 01:31:32.160 the doctrine that Rome teaches puts them in a situation where there's 01:31:32.160 --> 01:31:36.480 almost no possibility for someone who is Roman Catholic to cease to 01:31:36.480 --> 01:31:40.160 be Roman Catholic without ceasing to be Christian. 01:31:40.160 --> 01:31:44.160 You know, there are lots of former Lutherans and former Baptists and 01:31:44.160 --> 01:31:45.920 former pretty much everything. 01:31:45.920 --> 01:31:51.200 You don't the the only former Roman Catholics you find are men 01:31:51.360 --> 01:31:55.520 or women who married someone of another faith and adopted the other 01:31:55.520 --> 01:31:56.640 person's faith. 01:31:56.640 --> 01:32:00.400 Those are the only former Roman Catholics I've ever met in my 01:32:00.400 --> 01:32:02.800 life or ever heard of. 01:32:02.800 --> 01:32:08.240 Everyone else is not a former Roman Catholic, they're a lapsed Catholic. 01:32:08.240 --> 01:32:12.480 And the reason for that is one of the key teachings that 01:32:13.600 --> 01:32:19.920 On paper it's actually defensible, becomes indefensible when it is twisted. 01:32:19.920 --> 01:32:24.160 And that is extra ecclesium nulla salus or outside of the church 01:32:24.320 --> 01:32:26.880 there is no salvation. 01:32:26.880 --> 01:32:30.560 This is either true or false, depending on how you define the 01:32:30.560 --> 01:32:34.160 church. So I absolutely agree that outside of the church there is 01:32:34.160 --> 01:32:35.280 no salvation. 01:32:35.280 --> 01:32:38.560 What I disagree with is how we define the church. 01:32:38.560 --> 01:32:41.360 I believe, I believe that scripture teachers, and I believe in most 01:32:41.360 --> 01:32:42.720 of history teaches. 01:32:42.720 --> 01:32:46.160 In fact, you can look at the Wikipedia article for this term 01:32:46.400 --> 01:32:52.400 and find many of the arguments that are made inside Rome, I 01:32:52.400 --> 01:32:56.400 can agree with for the most part, because they're talking about the 01:32:56.400 --> 01:33:02.080 capital C church in terms of all believers, all Christians, regardless of 01:33:02.080 --> 01:33:04.080 denominational affiliation. 01:33:04.080 --> 01:33:05.360 Now I don't say that lightly. 01:33:05.360 --> 01:33:08.480 I don't like, oh, you're just affiliated with a denomination. 01:33:08.480 --> 01:33:11.760 We are all inheritors of whatever our denominations teach. 01:33:11.760 --> 01:33:13.520 So it's important to be in a good one. 01:33:13.520 --> 01:33:15.760 Because if in your you're in a bad one, you're going to 01:33:15.760 --> 01:33:18.320 inherit crap and you're going to believe crap, and you're going to 01:33:18.320 --> 01:33:21.760 be in a situation where suddenly push comes to shove and you're 01:33:21.680 --> 01:33:24.960 not equipped to deal with tough issues. 01:33:24.960 --> 01:33:29.360 So the problem that I think is unique to Roman Catholics today 01:33:29.360 --> 01:33:32.400 is that when they look at a wicked pope like the current 01:33:32.400 --> 01:33:35.760 one, they are effectively Protestant. 01:33:35.760 --> 01:33:39.920 They effectively have to say, well, not this one, but there's still 01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:42.560 Christianity elsewhere in Roman Catholic history. 01:33:42.640 --> 01:33:43.200 I agree with that. 01:33:43.200 --> 01:33:44.560 Corey agrees with that. 01:33:44.560 --> 01:33:49.440 I think one of the key differentiators in the Reformation that we'll 01:33:49.360 --> 01:33:51.120 we'll get to briefly is that 01:33:52.080 --> 01:33:54.560 things kind of bit went in four basic directions. 01:33:54.560 --> 01:33:59.760 They're kind of four large groups that exploded out of the Reformation. 01:33:59.760 --> 01:34:02.800 One, you have those who remained Roman Catholic. 01:34:02.800 --> 01:34:04.880 Two, you have the Lutherans. 01:34:04.880 --> 01:34:08.080 Three, you have what are today mostly called the Reformed. 01:34:08.080 --> 01:34:10.160 That's how we refer to them as Lutherans. 01:34:10.160 --> 01:34:12.560 And you have the Anabaptists. 01:34:12.560 --> 01:34:19.280 Those four groups disagree with each other mutually internally on a number 01:34:19.280 --> 01:34:22.800 of things, but they can all be boiled down to the sacraments. 01:34:22.800 --> 01:34:28.240 There is no mutual agreement about both communion and baptism among those 01:34:28.240 --> 01:34:29.680 four groups. 01:34:29.680 --> 01:34:30.560 And so 01:34:32.720 --> 01:34:36.240 one of the things that came out of the Reformation is that 01:34:36.320 --> 01:34:40.080 in particular the Anabaptists, and then some of those that we would 01:34:40.080 --> 01:34:46.000 categorize in the Reformed body, although they don't necessarily call themselves that, 01:34:46.080 --> 01:34:51.120 basically adopted the view that if it was inherited from Rome in 01:34:51.200 --> 01:34:56.640 you know 1520 or whatever, pick your date of Reformation explosion. 01:34:56.640 --> 01:35:00.000 If Rome was doing it on that date, we reject it out 01:35:00.000 --> 01:35:03.600 of hand because it's Roman Catholic, that means it's bad, Pope bad, 01:35:03.600 --> 01:35:05.040 it's all bad, it's all evil. 01:35:05.040 --> 01:35:07.040 We want none of it. 01:35:07.040 --> 01:35:08.160 That's a strain. 01:35:08.160 --> 01:35:10.960 I don't know the history of it from that point to today, 01:35:10.960 --> 01:35:15.200 but is very common today in American Christianity And it's a disaster 01:35:15.440 --> 01:35:19.280 because again, it goes back to the question: what is the church? 01:35:19.280 --> 01:35:23.600 You know, the Western Catholic Church was synonymous with the Roman Catholic 01:35:23.600 --> 01:35:27.120 Church. To what degree was the things that they did, and to 01:35:27.120 --> 01:35:32.000 what degree were the things that we inherited Roman Catholic, and to 01:35:32.000 --> 01:35:33.520 what degree were they Christian? 01:35:33.520 --> 01:35:37.280 You know, what percentage do you attribute guilt, if you want to 01:35:37.280 --> 01:35:40.000 look at it that way, but simply put But how much of 01:35:40.000 --> 01:35:44.000 what they were doing in thirteen hundred, fourteen hundred, fifteen hundred were 01:35:44.000 --> 01:35:48.400 they doing because of Roman Catholic distinctives, and how much of it 01:35:48.400 --> 01:35:54.080 was simply the inherited faith of the Western Christian Church. 01:35:54.320 --> 01:36:00.560 As Corey said earlier, it's perfectly fine for church bodies in different 01:36:00.560 --> 01:36:05.840 times and certainly in different places to have varying customs of worship 01:36:05.840 --> 01:36:09.120 practice, of liturgy. 01:36:09.120 --> 01:36:12.560 But I think it's also important when you're discussing things in those 01:36:12.560 --> 01:36:16.240 terms not to disregard the inheritance. 01:36:16.240 --> 01:36:20.640 In the I use that term advisedly because Rome will call it 01:36:20.640 --> 01:36:24.320 tradition with a capital T and say that this is tradition, this 01:36:24.320 --> 01:36:28.080 was inherited, this holds the same weight as scripture because we've always 01:36:28.080 --> 01:36:29.840 done it. 01:36:29.840 --> 01:36:30.160 As 01:36:31.040 --> 01:36:35.120 non-Roman Catholics, we must necessarily reject that, or we'd have to be 01:36:35.120 --> 01:36:35.920 Roman Catholic. 01:36:35.920 --> 01:36:37.920 That's a clear dividing line. 01:36:37.920 --> 01:36:44.080 If tradition is your binding key, then we're on the outside. 01:36:44.080 --> 01:36:45.440 If, on the other hand, tradition 01:36:46.800 --> 01:36:53.120 can be viewed as both advisory and hopefully salutary, then 01:36:54.080 --> 01:36:57.120 you will do what the Lutherans did. 01:36:57.120 --> 01:37:03.120 You know, when you look today at a confessional, conservative, liturgical, Lutheran 01:37:03.280 --> 01:37:07.440 church service, there are a lot of Roman Catholics who are envious. 01:37:07.440 --> 01:37:13.360 Because if they're a novosordo, if they're Vatican II crap service, we 01:37:13.360 --> 01:37:17.520 are still doing what their ancestors were doing eighty years ago. 01:37:17.520 --> 01:37:21.200 And you know, not in Latin, obviously, we're using the vernacular, but 01:37:21.200 --> 01:37:25.840 we're preserving the same liturgy by and large that existed in the 01:37:25.920 --> 01:37:27.360 16th century. 01:37:27.360 --> 01:37:31.040 And it wasn't because it was binding upon our consciences as Christians, 01:37:31.040 --> 01:37:33.200 it was because it's the Western Church. 01:37:33.200 --> 01:37:37.440 You know, if we had split instead from Eastern Orthodoxy. 01:37:37.440 --> 01:37:40.960 You know, we would have gaudy colors and big hats and whatever. 01:37:40.960 --> 01:37:44.240 And you know, if it's inherited, I guess you gotta be cringe. 01:37:44.240 --> 01:37:44.720 I don't know. 01:37:44.720 --> 01:37:48.720 Like it's it's one thing to say we gotta throw this thing 01:37:48.720 --> 01:37:48.880 away 01:37:49.760 --> 01:37:51.520 because a bad guy did it. 01:37:51.520 --> 01:37:54.160 It's another thing to say, well, unless we have a reason to 01:37:54.160 --> 01:37:56.000 change this, let's leave it alone. 01:37:56.000 --> 01:38:00.880 And that was 100% the approach the Luther and the Lutheran reformers 01:38:00.880 --> 01:38:05.520 took to the inheritance from a Roman Catholic tradition. 01:38:05.520 --> 01:38:07.520 We didn't see it as binding. 01:38:07.520 --> 01:38:11.200 We saw it as as a treasure as much as possible. 01:38:11.200 --> 01:38:13.120 We didn't want to lose any of it. 01:38:13.120 --> 01:38:17.040 And wherever there was something that was set aside, it was only 01:38:17.040 --> 01:38:19.200 for a doctrinal reason. 01:38:19.200 --> 01:38:24.000 And it's one of the key differences among Reformation denominations is that 01:38:24.000 --> 01:38:28.640 many of the other denominations became iconoclastic. 01:38:28.640 --> 01:38:32.240 They you know, they some of them the Anabaptists were murdering people, 01:38:32.240 --> 01:38:34.480 they were burning down churches, they were destroying art. 01:38:34.480 --> 01:38:35.920 It was truly demonic. 01:38:35.920 --> 01:38:39.360 I completely side with the Roman Catholics in hating that. 01:38:39.360 --> 01:38:40.720 That never should have happened. 01:38:40.720 --> 01:38:42.720 It was purely evil. 01:38:42.720 --> 01:38:47.600 And it was done because they confused Roman Catholicism with Christianity. 01:38:47.600 --> 01:38:50.800 They thought, well, if if that's what Christianity is, I don't want 01:38:50.800 --> 01:38:51.520 any part of it. 01:38:51.520 --> 01:38:53.760 If that's what Rome was, and I know Rome is bad, I 01:38:53.760 --> 01:38:55.280 can't I can't do any of it. 01:38:55.280 --> 01:38:56.800 It's a category error. 01:38:56.800 --> 01:39:00.560 It's a framing error and it's a it's a catastrophic one. 01:39:00.560 --> 01:39:05.120 Because much of what Rome was doing wasn't wrong. 01:39:05.120 --> 01:39:06.640 Some of their teachings were wrong. 01:39:06.640 --> 01:39:08.240 Some of the practices were wrong. 01:39:08.240 --> 01:39:13.520 For example, the Lutheran confessions describe the Mass on one hand as 01:39:13.520 --> 01:39:17.600 the abomination of the Mass, because they take a different view of 01:39:17.600 --> 01:39:21.680 what is happening in the sacrament of the altar, they do different 01:39:21.680 --> 01:39:23.200 things with it. 01:39:23.200 --> 01:39:27.920 We view that as an abomination, not because communion is an abomination, 01:39:27.920 --> 01:39:32.160 but because there are abuses that were downstream from heirs that crept 01:39:32.160 --> 01:39:37.040 into Rome that we necessarily had to reject based on Scripture. 01:39:37.040 --> 01:39:40.720 And so some of the disputes on the sacrament of the altar 01:39:40.960 --> 01:39:45.360 among Rome and Lutherans and Baptists and Reformed specifically have to have 01:39:45.360 --> 01:39:48.080 to do with what's going on in communion. 01:39:48.080 --> 01:39:50.320 We already did an episode where we talk about what goes on 01:39:50.320 --> 01:39:51.200 in baptism. 01:39:51.200 --> 01:39:53.760 We'll probably do some point about communion because a number of people 01:39:53.760 --> 01:39:56.320 have asked and it's an important question. 01:39:56.320 --> 01:39:59.360 And as we said before, we don't we don't want stone Choir 01:39:59.520 --> 01:40:03.520 just to be us like teaching everything the Luther's Lutherans believe about 01:40:03.520 --> 01:40:04.560 all this stuff. 01:40:04.560 --> 01:40:08.880 On the other hand, we accept and receive that teaching gladly, and 01:40:09.040 --> 01:40:09.840 it's important. 01:40:09.840 --> 01:40:14.000 Certainly, if nothing else is a part of the historic conversation. 01:40:14.000 --> 01:40:18.080 And I think that one of the weaknesses that especially a lot 01:40:18.080 --> 01:40:21.840 of reformed guys have is that they know a little bit about 01:40:21.840 --> 01:40:27.440 Luther and Lutheranism, but because they simply see him as one among 01:40:27.440 --> 01:40:32.560 a whole bunch of sixteenth century reformers, the rest of whom they 01:40:32.560 --> 01:40:34.160 side with on most things. 01:40:34.160 --> 01:40:36.320 They just see him as kind of one voice among many. 01:40:36.320 --> 01:40:40.960 And so it's very It's very telling that most of the five 01:40:40.960 --> 01:40:47.360 hundredth anniversary Reformation celebrations and movies and things that were produced in 01:40:47.360 --> 01:40:53.280 twenty seventeen were produced by the Reformed because they see Luther as 01:40:53.280 --> 01:40:56.560 part of the Reformed tradition to some degree. 01:40:57.040 --> 01:41:02.480 I think it varies by individual denomination, But as Lutherans, I we 01:41:02.480 --> 01:41:04.560 find that just insane. 01:41:04.560 --> 01:41:06.080 Like I I I don't get it. 01:41:06.080 --> 01:41:07.040 I'm thankful. 01:41:07.040 --> 01:41:08.240 I I don't get me wrong. 01:41:08.240 --> 01:41:10.720 I I don't I'm not saying stop doing that. 01:41:10.720 --> 01:41:15.280 But when a reformed guy sees Luther as part of his tradition, 01:41:15.280 --> 01:41:18.640 I have to believe that he's never actually read what Lutherans believe 01:41:18.640 --> 01:41:23.680 about this stuff, because the Book of Concord initially what was compiled 01:41:23.680 --> 01:41:27.840 between fifteen twenty odd and fifteen eighty in the Book of Concord, 01:41:27.840 --> 01:41:30.160 beginning with the Augsburg Confession, 01:41:31.120 --> 01:41:38.160 what began as arguments with and against Roman Catholicism soon in ended 01:41:38.160 --> 01:41:40.720 up in a three and a four way fight with also the 01:41:40.720 --> 01:41:42.800 Reformed and the Anabaptists. 01:41:42.800 --> 01:41:45.760 So we had to had we had to dis dispute what everyone 01:41:45.760 --> 01:41:50.960 was saying simultaneously because the Pope wanted to lump the Lutherans in 01:41:50.960 --> 01:41:53.600 with the Reformed and the Anabaptists saying, well you're you're the ones 01:41:53.600 --> 01:41:56.320 murdering and and pillaging and burning down churches. 01:41:56.640 --> 01:41:58.800 And Lutherans, like, we're not doing any of that crap. 01:41:58.800 --> 01:42:00.400 We hate it as much as you do. 01:42:00.400 --> 01:42:06.080 And so was falsely attributing everything about the Reformation to the worst 01:42:06.080 --> 01:42:07.360 aspects of it. 01:42:07.360 --> 01:42:09.440 And then losing sight of what the differences were. 01:42:09.440 --> 01:42:12.560 And so, you know, if you are Baptist or Reform and you 01:42:12.560 --> 01:42:15.760 care about church history, you really owe it to yourself to actually 01:42:15.760 --> 01:42:17.440 just read the book of Concord. 01:42:17.440 --> 01:42:19.120 We'll put the link in the show notes. 01:42:19.120 --> 01:42:21.600 It's thebookofconcord.org. 01:42:21.600 --> 01:42:22.960 The whole thing's there. 01:42:22.960 --> 01:42:25.920 It's out of copyright, it's free, you can read the whole thing. 01:42:25.920 --> 01:42:29.440 Those are the arguments that were made in the 16th century. 01:42:29.440 --> 01:42:33.360 So as we look at the state of the church today, capital 01:42:33.520 --> 01:42:38.000 C, all believers, believers in Rome in the Reformed and Presbyterians and 01:42:38.000 --> 01:42:40.640 Baptists and Methodists. 01:42:40.640 --> 01:42:44.800 Yeah. I had a uh someone talk to me on Twitter earlier 01:42:44.800 --> 01:42:50.160 today and she mentioned that in her small town the local Methodist 01:42:50.160 --> 01:42:56.880 congregation has just left the UMC because they're going down the tubes. 01:42:56.880 --> 01:42:59.920 Now, from my perspective on the outside, I find it a little 01:42:59.920 --> 01:43:04.480 bit astonishing that there are any Christians left in Methodism because all 01:43:04.480 --> 01:43:09.040 I know is like the big ticket horrors, the the absolute abject, 01:43:09.040 --> 01:43:14.080 terminal Protestant apostasy that w is held out as like here's the 01:43:14.080 --> 01:43:15.840 end stage of the Reformation. 01:43:15.840 --> 01:43:16.400 You know No 01:43:17.600 --> 01:43:21.440 rainbow flags, you know, fake rainbow flags with six colors, not seven. 01:43:21.760 --> 01:43:24.400 all the usual hallmarks of total apostasy. 01:43:24.400 --> 01:43:26.320 When I think Methodist, that's what I think. 01:43:26.320 --> 01:43:29.360 I've actually used as a punchline in an earlier episode. 01:43:29.440 --> 01:43:33.040 When I hear from her that there are churches leaving Methodism or 01:43:33.040 --> 01:43:39.200 leaving at least the UMC specifically because of the those abuses, it's 01:43:39.120 --> 01:43:43.280 hardening. And she mentioned that, you know, the the Baptist churches there 01:43:43.280 --> 01:43:46.560 are probably going to be leaving the SBC for very similar reasons. 01:43:46.560 --> 01:43:49.920 Because I said at the beginning, all of the church bodies, no 01:43:49.920 --> 01:43:54.400 matter how liberal or conservative, are all under the same attack today. 01:43:54.400 --> 01:43:56.080 Almost verbatim. 01:43:56.080 --> 01:44:00.160 Now I mentioned last week the quotes from Giles Corey's book The 01:44:00.160 --> 01:44:03.840 Sword of Christ, he had quotes from Russell Moore in the SBC 01:44:03.920 --> 01:44:08.960 in twenty seventeen talking about racism and anti Semitism and their battle 01:44:08.960 --> 01:44:12.800 with it, and it was virtually verbatim what Matt Harrison, president of 01:44:12.800 --> 01:44:16.080 the LCMS, said about Stone Choir earlier this year. 01:44:16.080 --> 01:44:19.520 So how's the Baptist and the Lutheran presidents? 01:44:19.680 --> 01:44:22.400 Well, he's the president, but he was he was very influential. 01:44:22.400 --> 01:44:24.000 I don't pay much attention to this stuff. 01:44:24.000 --> 01:44:27.680 So I I apologize when I'm ignorant of other denominations. 01:44:27.680 --> 01:44:30.240 I historically never paid that much attention, and when I did start 01:44:30.240 --> 01:44:34.640 paying attention, I quickly realized how much trouble my own was in. 01:44:34.640 --> 01:44:38.800 So I'm not gonna worry about other people's dirty laundry and baggage 01:44:38.800 --> 01:44:42.240 when my own house is not in order. 01:44:42.240 --> 01:44:45.920 So sometimes I'm ignorant of the stuff that's just it's me allocating 01:44:45.920 --> 01:44:48.640 my scarce resources as I see fit. 01:44:48.720 --> 01:44:53.600 When Russell Moore and Harrison are in agreement on things that you 01:44:53.600 --> 01:44:59.040 will find in your HR department talking about DEI requirements. 01:44:59.040 --> 01:45:00.640 That's the world religion. 01:45:00.640 --> 01:45:04.160 That is the new global religion that is being pushed down the 01:45:04.160 --> 01:45:06.640 throats of all the churches simultaneously. 01:45:06.640 --> 01:45:10.240 And see, the SBC and the LCMS have major doctrinal differences 01:45:11.280 --> 01:45:15.520 on historic stuff on the sixteenth century stuff, just as we have 01:45:15.520 --> 01:45:18.400 major disagreements with the Methodists. 01:45:18.400 --> 01:45:22.880 And yet, today, when the attacks come, they're not simply a replay 01:45:23.440 --> 01:45:25.920 attack of what happened in the 16th century. 01:45:25.920 --> 01:45:26.960 They're new attacks. 01:45:26.960 --> 01:45:32.160 They're attacks on sex, on headship, on right down the line, you 01:45:32.160 --> 01:45:36.880 know, racism, slavery, all these things that on one hand you have 01:45:37.120 --> 01:45:41.120 guys like MLK and Bonhoeffer as the patron saints of the new 01:45:41.120 --> 01:45:45.440 global religion who are 100% on board with Russell Moore and Matt 01:45:45.440 --> 01:45:48.320 Harrison across the board on all these things. 01:45:48.320 --> 01:45:51.520 And by the way, your HR department, they all have the same 01:45:51.520 --> 01:45:55.520 religion. And on the other side, you have Christians remaining in the 01:45:55.520 --> 01:45:59.680 pews saying, what on earth is going on here? 01:45:59.680 --> 01:46:02.400 One day I feel like my church just left me and I 01:46:02.400 --> 01:46:03.680 don't know what happened. 01:46:03.680 --> 01:46:06.000 I don't think I changed what I believe. 01:46:06.000 --> 01:46:08.400 And that's the case for a lot of us as we're looking 01:46:08.400 --> 01:46:11.360 around, you know, Roman Catholics, chief among them. 01:46:11.360 --> 01:46:15.280 You know, when you were born, if you're listening today, Bergoglio wasn't 01:46:15.280 --> 01:46:18.000 Pope when you were born, he's the Pope now. 01:46:18.000 --> 01:46:19.520 You're stuck with him. 01:46:19.520 --> 01:46:20.080 And so 01:46:21.200 --> 01:46:26.880 what do we do as Christians as we're looking at these problems? 01:46:26.880 --> 01:46:30.720 And as I said earlier, I I take solace in the fact 01:46:30.720 --> 01:46:36.640 that so many people from different traditions are listening and agreeing with 01:46:36.640 --> 01:46:38.080 at least some of what we say. 01:46:38.080 --> 01:46:40.960 Not because I want people to agree with me, but because we're 01:46:40.960 --> 01:46:42.800 making arguments from scripture. 01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:45.520 And so if you agree with our argument from scripture, you're agreeing 01:46:45.520 --> 01:46:46.000 with scripture. 01:46:46.000 --> 01:46:47.040 You're agreeing with God. 01:46:47.040 --> 01:46:49.520 You're not agreeing with two random podcasters. 01:46:49.520 --> 01:46:52.960 You're not becoming Lutheran automatically because you agree with us. 01:46:53.520 --> 01:46:57.280 And one of the important things that I I want to emphasize 01:46:57.280 --> 01:47:02.880 as we talk about where do we all go next is that 01:47:03.680 --> 01:47:07.440 I've said before it's very important to us that people are not 01:47:07.280 --> 01:47:10.160 People are not fickle about their beliefs. 01:47:10.160 --> 01:47:13.920 If you are Roman Catholic, I don't want you to stop being 01:47:13.920 --> 01:47:16.480 Roman Catholic because you listen to Stone Choir. 01:47:16.480 --> 01:47:17.520 Not automatically. 01:47:17.520 --> 01:47:19.600 I would like for you to stop being Roman Catholic because you 01:47:19.600 --> 01:47:21.600 agree that Lutheran doctrine is sound. 01:47:21.840 --> 01:47:26.320 But again, the problem with the teaching of Rome is that if 01:47:26.320 --> 01:47:29.600 you leave Rome, if you lose the Pope, you're not a Christian 01:47:29.600 --> 01:47:34.400 anymore. And that's why you're either Catholic or you're lapse Catholic, because 01:47:34.400 --> 01:47:35.920 no one ever escapes. 01:47:35.920 --> 01:47:38.720 You're Your choice is either the Pope or hell. 01:47:38.720 --> 01:47:40.640 And that's a complete oversimplification. 01:47:40.640 --> 01:47:44.000 There are all sorts of outs, but that is the bottom line. 01:47:44.000 --> 01:47:49.280 In practice, forget what you find in the doctrinal treatises explaining how, 01:47:49.280 --> 01:47:51.360 well, yeah, you can yeah, the Pope can do this and then 01:47:51.360 --> 01:47:53.520 we're okay and everything's honky dory. 01:47:53.520 --> 01:47:58.800 When the rubber meets the road, when a Roman Catholic believer ceases 01:47:58.800 --> 01:48:02.320 to be a believer because of the hypocrisy and the wickedness in 01:48:02.320 --> 01:48:07.840 the administration of Rome, they don't change denominations, they lose their faith. 01:48:07.840 --> 01:48:10.160 And above all things, I don't want that to happen. 01:48:10.160 --> 01:48:13.520 And so that's the reason I specifically sing all Roman Catholics say, 01:48:13.520 --> 01:48:16.160 I don't want you to stop being Roman Catholic because the odds 01:48:16.160 --> 01:48:19.280 are almost a hundred percent that you're gonna stop being Christian, which 01:48:19.280 --> 01:48:20.800 is the last thing I want. 01:48:20.800 --> 01:48:23.200 If you're a Roman Catholic and you agree with some of what 01:48:23.200 --> 01:48:24.560 we say, it means you're a Christian. 01:48:24.560 --> 01:48:28.560 Not that we're the benchmark of Christianity, but that the only common 01:48:28.560 --> 01:48:32.880 ground that we share is scripture, is the word of God. 01:48:32.880 --> 01:48:37.040 And the beauty of God and of his word is that it 01:48:37.040 --> 01:48:40.400 is uh efficacious in all times and in all places. 01:48:40.400 --> 01:48:43.280 And the fact that we have people in all these different denominations 01:48:43.280 --> 01:48:46.080 who agree with some of what we say when we argue from 01:48:46.080 --> 01:48:49.920 scripture, is that it means that scripture is being preached among you 01:48:49.920 --> 01:48:50.560 as well. 01:48:50.560 --> 01:48:53.920 Even if your pastors are getting some things wrong or your priests, 01:48:53.920 --> 01:48:58.160 even if there are doctrines that are in error, if you're in 01:48:58.160 --> 01:49:01.600 agreement about what scripture says with us, it means that you have 01:49:01.600 --> 01:49:03.600 the Holy Spirit and that 01:49:04.560 --> 01:49:07.600 there's something there for God to work with. 01:49:07.600 --> 01:49:10.000 And in some cases, he's using our voices. 01:49:10.000 --> 01:49:12.960 In other cases, you know, it's the the ripples of what we 01:49:12.960 --> 01:49:15.920 have done already in the first year of Stone Choir will, you 01:49:15.920 --> 01:49:18.240 know, they'll they'll last for a very long time. 01:49:18.400 --> 01:49:21.440 I can say that with confidence because we know for a fact 01:49:21.440 --> 01:49:25.760 that there are hundreds of men who brought their families, children have 01:49:25.840 --> 01:49:29.280 been baptized for the first time, specifically because of hearing the things 01:49:29.280 --> 01:49:30.320 that we say. 01:49:30.320 --> 01:49:32.080 That doesn't that's not us doing it. 01:49:32.080 --> 01:49:34.960 Like, you know, we did the baptism episode recently, but 01:49:36.240 --> 01:49:39.280 we haven't talked a whole lot about baptism until you know just 01:49:39.280 --> 01:49:41.200 a couple weeks ago. 01:49:41.200 --> 01:49:45.840 When someone hears what we're arguing and say, Yeah, that's the Christianity 01:49:45.840 --> 01:49:46.880 that I want. 01:49:46.880 --> 01:49:50.240 You're not adopting our views. 01:49:50.240 --> 01:49:54.400 You are realizing that there's something in scripture that in a very 01:49:54.400 --> 01:49:57.280 real sense goes beyond every denomination. 01:49:57.360 --> 01:50:01.600 Now I'm not uh me and my Bible under the tree person. 01:50:01.600 --> 01:50:03.600 That's I that's a disaster. 01:50:03.600 --> 01:50:07.040 The Reformation in large part was a disaster, but it wasn't a 01:50:07.040 --> 01:50:08.400 disaster because of the reformers. 01:50:08.960 --> 01:50:13.200 It was a disaster because of the persecution of Rome against faithful 01:50:13.200 --> 01:50:17.520 Christian men who wanted to straighten things out. 01:50:17.520 --> 01:50:17.840 So 01:50:18.800 --> 01:50:21.040 for everyone who listens to Stone Choir who 01:50:22.000 --> 01:50:25.200 is getting back into reading scripture, maybe reading it for the first 01:50:25.200 --> 01:50:27.680 time, who's, you know, if you're in a church and you're looking 01:50:27.680 --> 01:50:30.720 at your church and you're finding some of the things that they 01:50:30.720 --> 01:50:33.440 teach aren't consonant with what you're seeing in scripture 01:50:34.320 --> 01:50:37.520 or what you're hearing in sound arguments from us or from others. 01:50:37.520 --> 01:50:42.960 Like there's an infinite supply of theological argument for these positions, most 01:50:42.960 --> 01:50:45.440 of them, anyway. 01:50:45.440 --> 01:50:49.280 If you look around, you know, for example, the lady on Twitter 01:50:49.280 --> 01:50:52.560 who said, you know, oh she's SBC, but probably it seemed that 01:50:52.560 --> 01:50:55.120 way. If you're in an SBC church or you're in a Methodist 01:50:55.120 --> 01:50:57.280 church or a Presbyterian church, and 01:50:58.400 --> 01:51:04.800 you're seeing that your leadership, not locally, but your leadership nationally is 01:51:04.800 --> 01:51:08.640 doing something that is tending towards apostasy or certainly towards what you 01:51:08.640 --> 01:51:11.520 find to be intolerable or false doctrine. 01:51:13.280 --> 01:51:16.640 Honestly, I don't know where we go from here as Christians, like 01:51:16.720 --> 01:51:19.520 not as like a podcast or anything, but I don't know where 01:51:19.520 --> 01:51:22.960 we as Christians in current years were looking at the state of 01:51:22.960 --> 01:51:28.080 the church across denominations, seeing the same cancer spreading in so many 01:51:28.080 --> 01:51:30.800 places in the same way, at the same rate, and to the 01:51:30.800 --> 01:51:33.520 same end. 01:51:33.520 --> 01:51:37.040 I hope that everyone who looks at their own church and says, 01:51:37.040 --> 01:51:40.400 Well, I I don't actually agree with this anymore. 01:51:40.400 --> 01:51:45.120 Maybe in some cases the the only suitable thing that you can 01:51:45.120 --> 01:51:49.520 do is to find another local church that teaches something closer to 01:51:49.520 --> 01:51:51.200 what you now believe. 01:51:51.280 --> 01:51:56.080 In some cases, maybe maybe the first thing that everyone probably should 01:51:56.080 --> 01:51:59.520 do when it can be done, you know, charitably and and without 01:51:59.520 --> 01:52:02.720 stirring up strife, is a talk about it, you know, with the 01:52:02.720 --> 01:52:04.800 other men in the convert congregation. 01:52:04.960 --> 01:52:08.640 You say, you know, I've been reading, I've been thinking about this. 01:52:08.640 --> 01:52:11.040 I think we should take another look at 01:52:12.000 --> 01:52:14.080 this church teaching. 01:52:14.080 --> 01:52:18.240 Now, that's you know, the the Roman Catholics will s will scream, 01:52:18.240 --> 01:52:19.760 well that's every man a pope. 01:52:19.760 --> 01:52:23.920 Well, we're individually accountable to God for our confession. 01:52:23.920 --> 01:52:26.960 You know, the president of the Missouri Synod or the president of 01:52:26.960 --> 01:52:29.680 your denomination or your pope is not going to answer 01:52:30.640 --> 01:52:32.960 on your behalf on judgment day. 01:52:32.960 --> 01:52:33.600 You are. 01:52:33.600 --> 01:52:36.480 Now he's going to answer for the lies that he told you, 01:52:36.480 --> 01:52:38.240 but that doesn't get you off the hook. 01:52:38.240 --> 01:52:41.760 If you believe the lies, you're accountable for that too. 01:52:41.760 --> 01:52:44.560 And so it's important for us as we're looking at this stuff 01:52:44.640 --> 01:52:47.520 is to figure out how can I be faithful to God. 01:52:47.520 --> 01:52:49.680 And I honestly I think in some cases, you know, we in 01:52:49.680 --> 01:52:53.360 particular, frankly, I think there are a lot more Christians in Presbyterianism 01:52:53.360 --> 01:52:56.240 today than there are in Lutheranism, just based on the behavior that 01:52:56.240 --> 01:52:57.200 I've seen. 01:52:57.200 --> 01:52:59.760 I think that a lot of guys in the Presbyterian and Reform 01:53:00.000 --> 01:53:03.600 space don't agree with us about everything, but they don't hate us. 01:53:03.600 --> 01:53:05.840 They don't think we're not Christians. 01:53:05.840 --> 01:53:07.840 They don't need to call us Nazis. 01:53:07.840 --> 01:53:10.160 Even if they think that we're wrong about stuff or we go 01:53:10.160 --> 01:53:12.000 too far or whatever. 01:53:12.000 --> 01:53:15.760 That is much closer to Christianity than the man who doxes me 01:53:15.760 --> 01:53:17.440 and tries to kill me. 01:53:17.520 --> 01:53:19.600 That's just that's a simple basic thing. 01:53:19.600 --> 01:53:22.400 If you disagree with a man, you don't try to kill him. 01:53:23.040 --> 01:53:27.120 I think that if you are, you know, Reformed Presbyterian, whatever, wherever 01:53:27.120 --> 01:53:30.240 you are, wherever God has placed you in your congregation, if you're 01:53:30.160 --> 01:53:35.120 looking around and you're seeing, I think that there's mistakes perhaps that 01:53:35.120 --> 01:53:39.600 have been made in the past in our denomination. 01:53:39.600 --> 01:53:42.480 Be honest about confronting how you got there. 01:53:42.480 --> 01:53:45.280 And it's going to differ for every denomination. 01:53:45.280 --> 01:53:50.400 For Rome, I think the the the line from Bergoglio back through 01:53:50.400 --> 01:53:53.600 Vatican II, I honestly I would hope that you would go all 01:53:53.600 --> 01:53:55.040 the back to Trent. 01:53:55.040 --> 01:53:58.640 I think a lot of things went off the rails at Trent. 01:53:58.640 --> 01:54:01.040 And it's something that doesn't get discussed a whole lot in Roman 01:54:01.040 --> 01:54:04.000 Catholicism today because it's just it's a given. 01:54:04.000 --> 01:54:07.920 You have five centuries of history built on top of it. 01:54:07.920 --> 01:54:12.720 But if you have already become Protestant, if you're already willing to 01:54:12.720 --> 01:54:14.320 say, Yeah, that's not my Pope. 01:54:14.320 --> 01:54:16.880 That like he he might technically be the Pope, but the man 01:54:16.880 --> 01:54:18.240 is a demon. 01:54:18.240 --> 01:54:22.480 If you're there, then you have a duty to God, not to 01:54:22.480 --> 01:54:25.600 the Pope, not to the magisterium, not to tradition. 01:54:25.600 --> 01:54:29.280 You have a duty to God to figure out where did things 01:54:29.280 --> 01:54:30.880 go off the rails. 01:54:30.880 --> 01:54:34.560 And frankly, most people aren't equipped to answer that question by themselves, 01:54:34.560 --> 01:54:37.520 but collectively Christians should be discussing those things. 01:54:37.520 --> 01:54:40.320 And the answer is going to be different in every denomination. 01:54:40.320 --> 01:54:44.240 You know, the the denominations that trace back to the Reformation will 01:54:44.240 --> 01:54:48.560 have varying degrees of disagreement and certain inflection points. 01:54:48.560 --> 01:54:52.480 And you know, we broke it down to those four basic categories, 01:54:52.480 --> 01:54:57.120 which is somewhat of an oversimplification, but not much. 01:54:57.120 --> 01:54:59.840 So I don't mean to be offensive by saying that, but pretty 01:54:59.840 --> 01:55:03.760 much everyone listening falls into one of those four buckets. 01:55:03.760 --> 01:55:06.880 And if you think that you're this kind of special little tiny 01:55:06.880 --> 01:55:07.600 thing, great. 01:55:07.600 --> 01:55:10.560 I hope you get everything right that everybody else got wrong because 01:55:10.560 --> 01:55:13.840 there's a lot of baggage. 01:55:13.840 --> 01:55:19.280 I want us wherever we are in our churches to work through 01:55:19.280 --> 01:55:23.600 this stuff out loud and hopefully cooperatively as much as possible. 01:55:23.600 --> 01:55:25.680 And I I don't know what's going to happen in the next 01:55:25.680 --> 01:55:26.400 five years. 01:55:26.400 --> 01:55:30.960 But when we we have listeners from so many different denominations agreeing 01:55:30.960 --> 01:55:33.280 on some big ticket stuff. 01:55:33.280 --> 01:55:36.480 You know, even the baptism episode, there are a number of people 01:55:36.480 --> 01:55:41.520 who join Lutheranism because we describe baptism to them correctly for the 01:55:41.520 --> 01:55:42.400 first time. 01:55:42.400 --> 01:55:44.560 And if you disagree with, I don't want you to just pop 01:55:44.560 --> 01:55:47.440 smoke on your church and say, 'I'm I'm out of here.' I 01:55:47.440 --> 01:55:52.080 don't want anything that we say to sow doubt in people's minds. 01:55:52.080 --> 01:55:55.360 I I hope that our words sow faithfulness. 01:55:55.360 --> 01:55:59.680 And if in growing faithful to scripture, you find that your own 01:55:59.680 --> 01:56:05.040 particular church and congregation has issues, hopefully they can be fixed. 01:56:05.040 --> 01:56:08.800 You know, honestly, for me, I think the the best case scenario 01:56:08.800 --> 01:56:11.440 is if there are a bunch of Presbyterian guys who are listening 01:56:11.440 --> 01:56:15.040 to Stone Choir in their church and almost everyone's like, Yeah, this 01:56:15.040 --> 01:56:16.560 is actually pretty good. 01:56:16.560 --> 01:56:20.560 I don't care if you start calling yourself Lutherans, but if we've 01:56:20.560 --> 01:56:24.560 gotten all these things right, maybe look at what the historic Lutheran 01:56:24.560 --> 01:56:26.560 teaching is on the sacrament. 01:56:26.560 --> 01:56:29.440 Because if you get the sacrament right, guess what? 01:56:29.840 --> 01:56:31.760 you're basically Lutheran at that point. 01:56:31.760 --> 01:56:33.440 I don't care what you call yourself. 01:56:33.440 --> 01:56:35.200 Call yourself Presbyterians for all I care. 01:56:35.200 --> 01:56:35.760 It doesn't matter. 01:56:35.760 --> 01:56:37.200 The label isn't important. 01:56:37.760 --> 01:56:41.920 Because the label it means whatever you want it to mean, or 01:56:41.920 --> 01:56:44.640 nothing, or whatever your opponent wants it to mean. 01:56:44.640 --> 01:56:47.520 The belief, the confession is what's important. 01:56:47.520 --> 01:56:51.440 If you don't confess the ecumenical creeds, start there. 01:56:51.440 --> 01:56:53.520 As we said earlier, we tried to make the case that the 01:56:53.520 --> 01:56:56.640 creeds themselves are a big deal. 01:56:56.640 --> 01:57:01.280 And if your church body is predicated on rejecting them, find out 01:57:01.280 --> 01:57:05.040 why and find out if you consider that to be tolerable. 01:57:05.040 --> 01:57:06.480 And maybe it's something to be fixed. 01:57:06.480 --> 01:57:09.600 Because like it's you know, it's not just mouthing the words every 01:57:09.600 --> 01:57:11.920 Sunday. It's just do I believe this or not? 01:57:11.920 --> 01:57:15.760 Forget saying it, forget confessing it or anything that formal. 01:57:15.760 --> 01:57:18.240 When you look at those words, do you believe them? 01:57:18.240 --> 01:57:22.400 And if you do, why wouldn't you join seventeen hundred years of 01:57:22.400 --> 01:57:24.960 Christians in saying them out loud? 01:57:24.960 --> 01:57:26.640 I think that's the predicate. 01:57:26.640 --> 01:57:30.000 That's a basis for a lot of the conversation that we hope 01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:32.400 we can start in many different places. 01:57:32.400 --> 01:57:33.920 Not to be disruptive. 01:57:34.240 --> 01:57:35.680 There will be some disruption. 01:57:35.840 --> 01:57:37.200 It's not the intent. 01:57:37.200 --> 01:57:39.200 And you need to be mature about this stuff. 01:57:39.200 --> 01:57:40.720 Don't go picking fights. 01:57:40.720 --> 01:57:41.120 Don't go 01:57:42.000 --> 01:57:43.440 neener near boo-boo. 01:57:43.440 --> 01:57:46.720 You're doing all this wrong suddenly because you heard some podcaster tell 01:57:46.720 --> 01:57:47.680 you something. 01:57:47.680 --> 01:57:52.480 Do some research, do some study, prayerfully consider what it is that 01:57:52.480 --> 01:57:56.480 you believe and what can be done within your church. 01:57:56.480 --> 01:57:58.800 And if the best thing for you and your family is to 01:57:58.800 --> 01:58:02.720 find a different church, a different congregation, a different denomination, and God's 01:58:02.720 --> 01:58:06.320 blessed you with one who's available, then you should do that if 01:58:06.320 --> 01:58:08.000 that's what your conscience convicts you of. 01:58:08.000 --> 01:58:11.040 I would never tell anyone to leave a Lutheran church. 01:58:11.040 --> 01:58:13.120 I would never tell anyone at this point to j join a 01:58:13.120 --> 01:58:16.640 Lutheran church because we've told you what they've done to us. 01:58:16.640 --> 01:58:19.680 And yet people are still streaming into Lutheran churches as a result 01:58:19.840 --> 01:58:20.880 of Stone Choir. 01:58:20.880 --> 01:58:22.240 I'm not going to argue with enemy either. 01:58:22.240 --> 01:58:23.920 I can't tell you're doing it wrong. 01:58:23.920 --> 01:58:25.920 And there are other people who listen to us and say, I 01:58:25.920 --> 01:58:28.320 would never go to a Lutheran church because of what they did 01:58:28.320 --> 01:58:28.640 to you. 01:58:28.640 --> 01:58:30.480 I'm not going to argue with you either. 01:58:30.480 --> 01:58:34.720 You need to look to your circumstances and see what's right for 01:58:34.720 --> 01:58:38.400 you. And see none of this is a capitulation on doctrine. 01:58:38.400 --> 01:58:42.720 I'm not I'm not saying that I disagree with baptism or communion 01:58:42.720 --> 01:58:45.680 or anything else the Lutheran doctrine holds. 01:58:45.680 --> 01:58:49.680 I'm saying that all of us need to try to get our 01:58:49.680 --> 01:58:51.200 own houses in order. 01:58:51.200 --> 01:58:53.600 And if that's possible and it can be done in a way 01:58:53.600 --> 01:58:57.840 that doesn't harm consciences or drive people away, that should be our 01:58:57.840 --> 01:59:01.920 task. I would much rather that all the different denominations become more 01:59:01.920 --> 01:59:05.280 faithful. And frankly, if that were to happen, you know, we believe 01:59:05.280 --> 01:59:07.280 doctrinally, you're all going to turn Lutheran. 01:59:07.280 --> 01:59:08.640 I don't I don't what you guys are doing. 01:59:08.640 --> 01:59:10.000 Why aren't you Lutheran to begin with? 01:59:10.080 --> 01:59:12.880 Well, part of it's the Lutherans have been incredibly terrible about telling 01:59:13.360 --> 01:59:16.240 people A that we exist or B what we believe or C 01:59:16.320 --> 01:59:17.680 why any of it matters. 01:59:17.680 --> 01:59:19.040 And this stuff does matter. 01:59:19.040 --> 01:59:20.880 This approach does matter. 01:59:20.880 --> 01:59:25.040 But there's no one simple direct solution for any of this apart 01:59:25.040 --> 01:59:28.960 from read your Bible, go to church, go to the best church 01:59:28.960 --> 01:59:33.360 you can find, talk to other Christians, hammer these things out, keep 01:59:33.360 --> 01:59:35.920 your head up, look out, look out in your community and look 01:59:35.920 --> 01:59:40.240 out in your congregation what's going on, and don't be surprised if 01:59:40.240 --> 01:59:43.440 the new fights don't look like the old fights. 01:59:43.440 --> 01:59:46.160 And the crucial thing there is that if there's a new fight, 01:59:46.160 --> 01:59:48.480 that means that we need new arguments. 01:59:48.480 --> 01:59:51.600 That's another reason that we started Stone Choir, is that a lot 01:59:51.600 --> 01:59:55.120 of what we're dealing with today no one's ever dealt with. 01:59:55.120 --> 01:59:58.960 And frankly, the overwhelming majority of pastors are utterly unfit to tackle 01:59:58.960 --> 01:59:59.600 these subjects. 01:59:59.600 --> 02:00:00.720 They're simply not. 02:00:00.720 --> 02:00:02.160 They're not smart enough. 02:00:02.160 --> 02:00:04.000 They don't know enough about scripture. 02:00:04.000 --> 02:00:07.520 They don't have the right approach to do anything other than spout 02:00:07.680 --> 02:00:10.240 platitudes that they learned in seminary. 02:00:10.560 --> 02:00:15.280 they were handed a toolbox for fighting 16th century fights, and they 02:00:15.280 --> 02:00:17.040 bring that toolbox wherever they go. 02:00:17.200 --> 02:00:21.840 And when Satan changes direction, they attack it with the wrong tool. 02:00:21.840 --> 02:00:24.320 Because they're not smart enough or they're not faithful enough. 02:00:24.320 --> 02:00:26.800 Some of them are just patently evil. 02:00:26.800 --> 02:00:29.520 We need to figure this stuff out for ourselves. 02:00:29.520 --> 02:00:32.080 And I want the pastors who can get the stuff right to 02:00:32.080 --> 02:00:32.720 do so. 02:00:32.720 --> 02:00:36.160 In some cases that's going to mean following to listening to men 02:00:36.160 --> 02:00:38.800 who can do a better job at this stuff than you. 02:00:38.800 --> 02:00:41.760 And I hope that we reach the day where churches are raising 02:00:41.760 --> 02:00:45.120 up men to be fit to do that in their own context. 02:00:45.120 --> 02:00:48.880 Pastors, elders, presbers, whatever you want to call them, I want those 02:00:48.880 --> 02:00:50.240 men to be faithful. 02:00:50.240 --> 02:00:53.120 It should have nothing to do with any what any particular man 02:00:53.120 --> 02:00:56.880 teaches. It should have everything to do with what scripture teaches. 02:00:56.880 --> 02:00:59.360 Because that was the point of the Reformation. 02:00:59.360 --> 02:01:02.320 Luther opened his Bible, he read it, and he says, hey, what 02:01:02.320 --> 02:01:05.440 I'm reading here doesn't match with what the church is doing. 02:01:05.440 --> 02:01:08.000 One of them is wrong, and I know it's not scripture. 02:01:08.000 --> 02:01:08.640 I believe God. 02:01:09.440 --> 02:01:11.840 So we need to do something about the church. 02:01:11.840 --> 02:01:16.160 Every one of us, whatever denomination you're in, has some problems today, 02:01:16.160 --> 02:01:17.360 and they're getting worse. 02:01:17.360 --> 02:01:19.760 I can say that with absolute certainty. 02:01:19.760 --> 02:01:23.520 So I don't want to see a massive flight from one denomination 02:01:23.520 --> 02:01:24.160 to another. 02:01:24.160 --> 02:01:27.360 I would like to see us get our own ducks in order, 02:01:27.360 --> 02:01:31.440 sort this stuff out, and we're going to find that well I 02:01:31.440 --> 02:01:35.120 I I I think if you diagnose correctly, where the airs crept 02:01:35.200 --> 02:01:38.800 in, more of you will naturally become Lutheran. 02:01:38.800 --> 02:01:41.200 Like it's it's my sincere hope. 02:01:41.200 --> 02:01:43.440 But at the same time, it's not a goal, if that makes 02:01:43.440 --> 02:01:46.400 sense. I don't I want us to be faithful, and I believe 02:01:46.400 --> 02:01:50.880 that being faithful means adopting Lutheran doctrine on some of these big 02:01:50.880 --> 02:01:52.080 ticket items. 02:01:52.080 --> 02:01:56.480 But frankly, the Lutherans are doing worse than some other denominations today 02:01:56.480 --> 02:01:59.840 when it comes to the new fight, because we have been so 02:01:59.840 --> 02:02:05.280 complacent, so set and resting on our laurels about 16th century fights 02:02:05.360 --> 02:02:11.600 that there's no one left who's actually competent to engage forcefully and 02:02:11.600 --> 02:02:14.800 clearly with the current issues. 02:02:14.800 --> 02:02:16.960 There are a few who are trying and some are doing an 02:02:16.960 --> 02:02:19.680 okay job, but frankly, even the best of them are kind of 02:02:19.680 --> 02:02:22.720 making a mess of a lot of it because they're either too 02:02:22.720 --> 02:02:26.000 afraid or they're still too wedded to some of the very things 02:02:26.000 --> 02:02:28.880 that need to be toppled because they're false doctrines. 02:02:28.880 --> 02:02:31.120 So those are discussions for other days and a lot of it's, 02:02:31.120 --> 02:02:33.920 you know, from past Stone Choir episodes, but 02:02:34.800 --> 02:02:38.560 I personally am very thankful that after a year we have such 02:02:38.560 --> 02:02:40.080 a varied audience. 02:02:40.080 --> 02:02:43.840 I think it's it's a remarkable testament to me to the to 02:02:43.840 --> 02:02:44.960 the power of God's word. 02:02:44.960 --> 02:02:48.480 I'm thankful that the where the Bible is in the pews and 02:02:48.480 --> 02:02:51.840 it's on people's lips and in their hearts, they're still Christians. 02:02:51.840 --> 02:02:55.920 And we can recognize each other's voice, even you know, across the 02:02:55.920 --> 02:02:59.040 ether or the internet, simply by virtue of the fact that we're 02:02:59.040 --> 02:03:00.720 speaking the same language. 02:03:00.720 --> 02:03:04.640 That's part of scripture when we're called sheep and God is our 02:03:04.640 --> 02:03:09.680 shepherd. And we are told that God's sheep recognize his voice. 02:03:09.680 --> 02:03:12.240 When we speak from Scripture, that is God's voice. 02:03:12.240 --> 02:03:13.680 That's not our voice. 02:03:13.680 --> 02:03:15.360 The word of God is from Him. 02:03:15.360 --> 02:03:17.120 It is our master's voice. 02:03:17.120 --> 02:03:22.000 And when there are sheep who recognize it across denominations, forget whatever 02:03:22.320 --> 02:03:26.720 vertical segmentation has occurred among different Christian groups. 02:03:26.720 --> 02:03:30.720 If we recognize the same voice, we're on the same team. 02:03:30.720 --> 02:03:34.480 Not completely, because obviously we don't recognize the same voice on every 02:03:34.480 --> 02:03:38.000 matter, or we would have complete doctrinal harmony. 02:03:38.000 --> 02:03:41.600 But insofar as we agree, we need to work together, even as 02:03:41.680 --> 02:03:45.360 just supporting each other, to try to make our own churches more 02:03:45.840 --> 02:03:50.160 faithful. And I I think that's one of the emergent hopes and 02:03:50.160 --> 02:03:54.400 properties of Stone Choirs to help us all wherever we are. 02:03:54.400 --> 02:03:58.480 I said if you're Roman Catholic, please keep being Roman Catholic and 02:03:58.480 --> 02:04:00.800 just figure out where things went wrong. 02:04:00.800 --> 02:04:03.120 Because it wasn't with Bergoglio. 02:04:03.120 --> 02:04:04.960 It wasn't with Vatican II. 02:04:04.960 --> 02:04:09.200 When you unwind the airs, you're gonna get back pretty much to 02:04:09.200 --> 02:04:11.600 where Luther and the other reformers were. 02:04:11.840 --> 02:04:14.400 Things went off the rails a long time ago. 02:04:14.400 --> 02:04:19.200 I you can find Saint Peter Damien quotes, they're a thousand years 02:04:19.200 --> 02:04:22.800 old, decrying the sexual abuses in the Roman Catholic Church. 02:04:24.000 --> 02:04:27.440 A thousand years ago, long before any of the scandals in today's 02:04:27.440 --> 02:04:30.560 headline, those behaviors were already rampant. 02:04:30.560 --> 02:04:33.840 That is the fruit of a sick tree. 02:04:33.840 --> 02:04:36.240 Not a dead tree, but a sick tree. 02:04:36.720 --> 02:04:40.480 the things, the abuses that occurred then that occurred today have a 02:04:40.480 --> 02:04:41.920 spiritual root. 02:04:41.920 --> 02:04:45.280 And it wasn't simply that those behaviors naturally exist, as Corey said 02:04:45.280 --> 02:04:48.640 in the past episode, there were things that Luther refused to even 02:04:48.880 --> 02:04:53.040 To even talk about because they were unknown in Germany. 02:04:53.040 --> 02:04:57.040 It was only Italian monks that were bringing that crap into Germany. 02:04:57.040 --> 02:04:59.440 And he didn't want his own people thinking about because it's too 02:04:59.440 --> 02:05:02.000 depraved. Those things don't naturally arise. 02:05:02.000 --> 02:05:07.440 They arise when Satan can take hold through abuses, sometimes small ones. 02:05:07.440 --> 02:05:10.960 Much of it lies at the feet of monasticism and the s 02:05:11.200 --> 02:05:15.760 the vows of celibacy that were forced on men men against their 02:05:15.760 --> 02:05:17.600 will because it's an unnatural thing. 02:05:17.600 --> 02:05:22.240 I'm descended from bishops, Roman Catholic bishops and nuns, because they didn't 02:05:22.160 --> 02:05:25.520 have vows of celibacy until much later. 02:05:25.520 --> 02:05:27.600 And then the abuses crept in. 02:05:27.600 --> 02:05:30.320 So if you're Roman Catholic, you know, I I'd like for you 02:05:30.320 --> 02:05:33.280 to be Lutheran, but I honestly I would like even more for 02:05:33.280 --> 02:05:34.960 you to clean up Rome. 02:05:34.960 --> 02:05:38.240 Because if the Western Christian Church all got back on the same 02:05:38.240 --> 02:05:40.800 page, there wouldn't be any more Lutherans either. 02:05:40.800 --> 02:05:42.240 We would all just be Christian. 02:05:42.240 --> 02:05:44.000 As we said at the beginning, that's never gonna happen. 02:05:44.000 --> 02:05:45.360 Not before Jesus come back. 02:05:46.000 --> 02:05:47.680 it's an impossibility. 02:05:47.680 --> 02:05:50.560 Nevertheless, it should be our goal to figure out where we're getting 02:05:50.560 --> 02:05:52.800 things wrong and to try to get them right. 02:05:52.800 --> 02:05:56.240 Anytime you open the Bible, first you know, listen to God's word 02:05:56.560 --> 02:05:58.800 and test your own heart against it. 02:05:58.800 --> 02:05:59.840 What are you doing right? 02:05:59.840 --> 02:06:01.040 What are you doing wrong? 02:06:01.040 --> 02:06:03.680 You know, it's a blessing from God for him to teach us. 02:06:03.680 --> 02:06:05.760 And he is teaching us through scripture. 02:06:05.760 --> 02:06:10.160 So thank you to everyone who has churches where scripture's being taught 02:06:10.400 --> 02:06:12.800 because you would hate us if that weren't the case. 02:06:13.440 --> 02:06:16.320 The people who hate us, their churches are not teaching scripture in 02:06:16.320 --> 02:06:18.880 the same ways you are. 02:06:18.880 --> 02:06:21.680 I hope that in the future Stone Choir can be something that 02:06:21.680 --> 02:06:24.480 is a a blessing to everyone who listens, even when you disagree 02:06:24.480 --> 02:06:25.760 with some things we say. 02:06:25.760 --> 02:06:28.960 These should be points of discussion that 02:06:30.240 --> 02:06:33.120 will make all of our faith stronger, all of our church is 02:06:33.040 --> 02:06:35.920 stronger, because the new attacks 02:06:37.440 --> 02:06:38.800 are going to continue. 02:06:38.800 --> 02:06:40.640 They're going to continue to escalate. 02:06:40.640 --> 02:06:42.000 They're going to get worse. 02:06:42.000 --> 02:06:44.160 They're going to become more horrific. 02:06:44.160 --> 02:06:48.640 And if we don't have a foundation that's based on in some 02:06:48.640 --> 02:06:52.080 cases new arguments, not not based on new principles. 02:06:52.080 --> 02:06:55.040 Like that there's a fundamental difference between a new argument and a 02:06:55.040 --> 02:06:56.000 new principle. 02:06:56.000 --> 02:07:01.360 The principles are 100% scriptural, but the arguments sometimes need to be 02:07:01.360 --> 02:07:02.480 made anew. 02:07:02.480 --> 02:07:04.400 And it's okay for us to do that, but we have to 02:07:04.400 --> 02:07:07.440 be very careful because you don't want to be inventing new doctrine. 02:07:07.440 --> 02:07:10.640 That's a it's a it's a terrible position for us to be 02:07:10.640 --> 02:07:11.040 put in. 02:07:11.200 --> 02:07:15.040 That's exactly the position that Satan's putting us in, to have to 02:07:15.040 --> 02:07:20.400 tackle new subjects without the benefit of wise men who came before 02:07:20.400 --> 02:07:22.320 us and just handed us a book. 02:07:22.320 --> 02:07:25.520 We have an inheritance of faith, but we don't have an inheritance 02:07:25.520 --> 02:07:27.440 of some of these arguments. 02:07:27.440 --> 02:07:30.560 And so to together we need to work through those arguments so 02:07:30.560 --> 02:07:32.320 that we can get to the point that we can make sure 02:07:32.320 --> 02:07:35.280 the the Western Christian Church survives. 02:07:35.280 --> 02:07:37.360 Period. I don't care what it's called. 02:07:37.360 --> 02:07:38.800 I just want to survive. 02:07:38.800 --> 02:07:41.680 And everyone who's listening is going to be a part of 02:07:41.680 --> 02:07:43.280 that. I 02:07:43.280 --> 02:07:48.720 would like to make a comment about something that is rampant, particularly 02:07:48.720 --> 02:07:52.560 on the right wing, but just generally in the West, because it 02:07:52.560 --> 02:07:56.480 is something to which human beings are prone. 02:07:56.480 --> 02:08:02.080 And that is the elevation of the concept of a denomination or 02:08:02.080 --> 02:08:08.000 a tradition, whatever term you happen to use for it, into essentially 02:08:08.480 --> 02:08:11.440 a sports team. 02:08:11.440 --> 02:08:16.480 We have this tendency as human beings to turn whatever sort of 02:08:16.480 --> 02:08:20.160 conflict we're in, even if it's minor, into 02:08:21.040 --> 02:08:25.600 a hard line black and white us versus them. 02:08:25.600 --> 02:08:27.200 That's not always wrong. 02:08:27.200 --> 02:08:30.160 Sometimes that is the right way to view things, particularly say if 02:08:30.160 --> 02:08:33.040 you're in a war, because that's the only way to view things 02:08:33.040 --> 02:08:37.440 in a war, certainly, anything else is going to harm your efforts. 02:08:37.440 --> 02:08:41.760 But when it comes to religion and matters like this, when it 02:08:41.760 --> 02:08:42.000 comes to 02:08:42.960 --> 02:08:50.800 doctrinal disagreements or disagreements on dogma, theology, whatever it happens to be, 02:08:50.800 --> 02:08:56.320 we need to view things less as if we are opposing factions 02:08:56.800 --> 02:09:00.320 each waving our flag and we're going to fight regardless of what 02:09:00.320 --> 02:09:04.000 the underlying truth happens to be, and more as 02:09:04.880 --> 02:09:08.480 brothers in the faith who are looking for the truth. 02:09:08.480 --> 02:09:10.080 Now I know that some are going to say 02:09:11.200 --> 02:09:14.400 that it's ironic that I'm the one saying this as I've been 02:09:14.400 --> 02:09:19.040 particularly polemical at times, particularly on social media. 02:09:19.040 --> 02:09:24.160 But as I've mentioned before, you interact with people in different ways 02:09:24.240 --> 02:09:25.600 in different contexts. 02:09:25.600 --> 02:09:29.760 I am one of the few remaining people who still holds to 02:09:29.760 --> 02:09:33.040 the ancient belief that you comport yourself in a different way, in 02:09:33.040 --> 02:09:34.880 a different place. 02:09:34.880 --> 02:09:38.000 And so you don't behave the same if you are having an 02:09:38.000 --> 02:09:43.440 audience with the king, or if you are crafting a tweet, or 02:09:43.440 --> 02:09:45.760 if you're recording a podcast. 02:09:45.760 --> 02:09:48.800 That doesn't mean that you're inconsistent, it doesn't mean that you're hypocritical, 02:09:48.800 --> 02:09:53.360 it means that different places call for a different tone, a different 02:09:53.360 --> 02:09:58.000 approach. And so on Twitter, yes, I'm going to be polemical because 02:09:58.080 --> 02:09:59.520 quite frankly, it's the point of Twitter. 02:09:59.520 --> 02:10:03.920 If you're not polemical at all, you're doing it wrong, unless you 02:10:03.920 --> 02:10:06.640 just happen to be reading it, in which case it's not a 02:10:06.640 --> 02:10:09.920 particularly bad source of news if you follow the right people. 02:10:11.440 --> 02:10:17.120 But as a more important, more general, more salient matter. 02:10:17.120 --> 02:10:19.920 Right now what we are facing and what I think we've made 02:10:19.920 --> 02:10:22.800 very clear over the course of the past year, is the complete 02:10:22.800 --> 02:10:25.120 and utter destruction of Christendom. 02:10:25.120 --> 02:10:29.920 And Lutherans alone are not going to be sufficient to save the 02:10:29.920 --> 02:10:32.800 church. There aren't enough of us. 02:10:32.800 --> 02:10:38.000 And quite frankly, that is the case for every single denomination or 02:10:38.000 --> 02:10:40.960 tradition. And you may think, well, there are a billion of us 02:10:40.960 --> 02:10:43.040 in whatever this happens to be. 02:10:43.040 --> 02:10:45.920 And I know for instance that certain of the Roman Catholic listeners 02:10:45.920 --> 02:10:47.440 will be thinking that. 02:10:47.440 --> 02:10:50.480 The issue is that there are not a billion of you. 02:10:50.480 --> 02:10:52.720 Because the ones who matter are the ones who are still true, 02:10:52.720 --> 02:10:56.000 the ones who are still faithful to scripture, who are true to 02:10:56.000 --> 02:10:59.280 God, and there are not a billion of you, because there aren't 02:10:59.200 --> 02:11:02.880 a billion Christians in any denomination. 02:11:03.040 --> 02:11:08.560 We are going to have to work together across denominational, across traditional 02:11:08.560 --> 02:11:13.040 lines, if we are going to make any sort of progress in 02:11:13.040 --> 02:11:16.560 saving the church from what is being done to her. 02:11:16.560 --> 02:11:20.080 This is going to be challenging for some of us. 02:11:20.080 --> 02:11:24.640 I am again inclined toward the polemical. 02:11:24.640 --> 02:11:28.400 Working across lines will take effort. 02:11:28.400 --> 02:11:31.200 It's something that does not come naturally. 02:11:31.200 --> 02:11:34.400 And this is going to be particularly so for a certain subset 02:11:34.400 --> 02:11:37.360 of listeners to this podcast, because there's probably a good five to 02:11:37.360 --> 02:11:42.320 ten percent of you who are inclined toward the polemical, who have 02:11:42.320 --> 02:11:48.400 read more about your particular tradition, who those who are steeped in 02:11:48.400 --> 02:11:52.240 the arguments, those who have engaged in these materials and so are 02:11:52.240 --> 02:11:55.440 very staunch in what they believe, and are going to defend even 02:11:55.440 --> 02:11:59.600 minutiae. I'm not saying that minutia are unimportant because they are important. 02:11:59.600 --> 02:12:03.360 The minor matters count, because truth matters. 02:12:03.360 --> 02:12:07.760 And as Wo said earlier in this episode, if two men disagree, 02:12:07.760 --> 02:12:09.920 at least one man is wrong. 02:12:09.920 --> 02:12:13.120 But again, of course, we can both be wrong. 02:12:13.120 --> 02:12:16.560 But the point is that we have to work together. 02:12:16.560 --> 02:12:21.440 And so we have to find some sort of common ground. 02:12:23.280 --> 02:12:28.800 This is going to be particularly challenging for some traditions, some denominations, 02:12:28.800 --> 02:12:31.760 much more so than others, and as well mentioned, that is going 02:12:31.760 --> 02:12:36.560 to be particularly you, our Roman Catholic listeners, because you have the 02:12:36.560 --> 02:12:41.600 challenge of centuries of inertia behind the false doctrine that has been 02:12:41.600 --> 02:12:44.400 brought into your church. 02:12:44.400 --> 02:12:46.560 That is very hard to overcome. 02:12:46.560 --> 02:12:50.160 I don't know that it necessarily can be overcome at this point. 02:12:50.480 --> 02:12:56.560 And so whether you stay in a Roman Catholic Church or you 02:12:56.560 --> 02:13:00.160 leave for a church that is truer to God's word, that does 02:13:00.160 --> 02:13:04.560 not have those centuries of inertia behind false doctrine. 02:13:04.560 --> 02:13:07.360 That is a matter of conscience that is between you and God. 02:13:07.360 --> 02:13:09.120 I know what I would do, and I don't think I have 02:13:09.120 --> 02:13:13.120 to say what I would do, because well you know. 02:13:13.120 --> 02:13:16.080 But we all face particular challenges. 02:13:16.080 --> 02:13:20.080 They're similar in some ways, they're unique in some ways. 02:13:20.320 --> 02:13:23.760 The Reformed are not going to face the same challenges as we 02:13:23.760 --> 02:13:25.040 Lutherans face. 02:13:25.040 --> 02:13:29.280 Lutherans will not face the same challenges as the Roman Catholics, and 02:13:29.280 --> 02:13:33.200 the same is true of everyone else, Methodist, Baptist, whatever you happen 02:13:33.200 --> 02:13:35.920 to be. 02:13:35.920 --> 02:13:41.120 But fundamentally, there are a handful of things about which we all 02:13:41.120 --> 02:13:46.400 agree. I would hope we can all agree, and quite frankly, we 02:13:46.400 --> 02:13:49.760 can all agree because anyone who does not is outside the faith, 02:13:49.760 --> 02:13:53.680 in the true sense of extra ecclesium, outside the church. 02:13:53.680 --> 02:13:56.640 I would hope that we can all agree that Jesus Christ is 02:13:56.640 --> 02:13:59.760 our Lord and Savior, and that He's the only way to the 02:13:59.760 --> 02:14:03.920 Father. That's our starting place. 02:14:03.920 --> 02:14:07.280 We can squabble about scripture, I wish that we wouldn't, but we 02:14:07.280 --> 02:14:07.600 will 02:14:08.480 --> 02:14:12.160 We can squabble about all these other things, but if we can 02:14:12.160 --> 02:14:16.080 have some sort of core on which we agree, we can at 02:14:16.080 --> 02:14:20.880 least work together against the enemies of the church and Christendom. 02:14:20.880 --> 02:14:24.080 Yes, inevitably we are going to be back at each other as 02:14:24.080 --> 02:14:26.800 soon as those enemies are out of the way. 02:14:26.800 --> 02:14:30.800 But I would much rather be fighting intellectual battles because we should 02:14:30.800 --> 02:14:34.000 not resort to force of arms against our Christian brothers. 02:14:34.880 --> 02:14:40.640 I would much rather be fighting intellectual battles against other Christians than 02:14:40.640 --> 02:14:47.680 fighting the hordes of pagans invading us from the third world. 02:14:47.680 --> 02:14:49.040 And we will not get there 02:14:50.080 --> 02:14:53.360 from here unless we work together. 02:14:54.560 --> 02:14:57.840 We've mentioned the Creeds repeatedly. 02:14:57.840 --> 02:15:02.400 And the Creeds really are the basic The basic foundation, the basics 02:15:02.400 --> 02:15:03.680 of the Christian faith. 02:15:03.680 --> 02:15:06.800 If we cannot agree on the creeds, then there is probably no 02:15:06.800 --> 02:15:09.520 hope of us working together. 02:15:09.520 --> 02:15:13.040 Now agreeing on the creeds is going to be particularly challenging, and 02:15:13.040 --> 02:15:16.320 in this case, I do not address myself specifically to the Roman 02:15:16.320 --> 02:15:19.120 Catholics, but to the Baptist listeners. 02:15:19.120 --> 02:15:22.160 Because there are going to be parts of the creeds that you 02:15:22.160 --> 02:15:26.960 will find are very Are very difficult to fit into your framework. 02:15:26.960 --> 02:15:29.360 Particularly for some of you, there will be the issue in the 02:15:29.360 --> 02:15:33.760 Nicene Creed of I believe in one baptism for the remission of 02:15:33.760 --> 02:15:37.520 sins. That is the teaching of the historic church, that is what 02:15:37.520 --> 02:15:40.400 we went over in the episode on baptism. 02:15:40.400 --> 02:15:42.800 That is what Christians have always believed. 02:15:42.800 --> 02:15:47.520 That is not entirely consonant with what your church has historically taught. 02:15:47.520 --> 02:15:50.240 You are going to have to resolve that for yourself because yourself 02:15:50.400 --> 02:15:53.520 because you will stand before God and give an answer for why 02:15:53.520 --> 02:15:56.000 you believed one way or the other. 02:15:56.000 --> 02:15:59.360 Why you believe what the church is historically taught, and is in 02:15:59.360 --> 02:16:02.080 fact in line with what Scripture says, I invite you to go 02:16:02.080 --> 02:16:04.800 back and read every single verse on Baptism and then And then 02:16:04.800 --> 02:16:08.480 read that line in the creed and see if they agree. 02:16:08.480 --> 02:16:12.000 We never call you to believe us blindly, or even to believe 02:16:12.000 --> 02:16:13.200 the creeds blindly. 02:16:13.200 --> 02:16:18.000 You are to believe scripture, compare everything against scripture. 02:16:18.000 --> 02:16:19.200 Scripture is very clear. 02:16:19.920 --> 02:16:21.520 Test the spirits. 02:16:21.520 --> 02:16:24.880 And this is the case with all teachers. 02:16:24.880 --> 02:16:29.120 Regardless of how highly esteemed they are in church history, you are 02:16:29.120 --> 02:16:31.840 to compare them to the words of God in Scripture. 02:16:32.320 --> 02:16:34.000 It doesn't matter. 02:16:34.000 --> 02:16:38.480 If it's Cyril of Alexandria, if it's Nestorius, if it's Origen, if 02:16:38.480 --> 02:16:42.640 it's Luther or Calvin or Tswingli, it doesn't matter which man, you 02:16:42.640 --> 02:16:45.600 are to compare his words to God's words. 02:16:45.600 --> 02:16:49.600 If they are consonant with God's words, then they are true, because 02:16:49.600 --> 02:16:52.640 he is speaking God's words after him. 02:16:52.640 --> 02:16:56.480 If they are not consonant with what God has said, then that 02:16:56.480 --> 02:16:59.920 man is a false teacher, at least in so far as what 02:16:59.920 --> 02:17:03.440 he has said disagrees with what God has said. 02:17:03.440 --> 02:17:06.560 And then you are left with the decision of whether or not 02:17:06.560 --> 02:17:08.800 you can follow that man that man. 02:17:08.800 --> 02:17:12.400 It depends on whether or not the errors he has made rise 02:17:12.400 --> 02:17:15.680 to the level where you cannot follow him as a teacher. 02:17:15.680 --> 02:17:18.720 Well and I don't agree with Luther on everything. 02:17:18.720 --> 02:17:23.280 Luther never jettisoned the belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary. 02:17:23.280 --> 02:17:25.840 Neither one of us holds to that. 02:17:25.840 --> 02:17:29.360 It's not in our confession, so we aren't bound by it, notably, 02:17:29.360 --> 02:17:33.280 which is good, because we are in fact both Lutheran. 02:17:33.280 --> 02:17:35.520 I am unapologetically Lutheran. 02:17:35.520 --> 02:17:37.920 I believe everything that is written in the Book of Concord. 02:17:37.920 --> 02:17:40.400 That is what I mean when I say I am a Lutheran. 02:17:40.400 --> 02:17:44.240 My subscription is quia, it is because the Book of Concord is 02:17:44.240 --> 02:17:47.840 true. And so I agree with it because it agrees with Scripture. 02:17:48.720 --> 02:17:51.520 I agree with it because I have read through it and assessed 02:17:51.520 --> 02:17:56.160 every line in the confession, in every document, in that book, against 02:17:56.160 --> 02:17:59.520 what Scripture says, and I have not found a contradiction. 02:17:59.440 --> 02:18:02.160 If I did I wouldn't be Lutheran. 02:18:02.160 --> 02:18:05.760 And that is why my confession is quia subscription to the Book 02:18:05.760 --> 02:18:06.560 of Concord. 02:18:06.560 --> 02:18:09.040 That is what I mean by Lutheran. 02:18:09.040 --> 02:18:12.480 And that is the point I want to make here. 02:18:12.480 --> 02:18:17.360 Our subscription, what we mean, what we declare, what we profess and 02:18:17.360 --> 02:18:21.680 confess as Christians, is a matter of doctrine, it is a matter 02:18:21.680 --> 02:18:22.560 of truth. 02:18:22.560 --> 02:18:24.880 It is not a matter of saying that I am Lutheran and 02:18:24.880 --> 02:18:27.120 so I'm going to waive this particular flag. 02:18:27.120 --> 02:18:29.920 Thankfully we don't have one because it probably would look as terrible 02:18:29.920 --> 02:18:31.520 as the so called Christian flag. 02:18:31.520 --> 02:18:34.000 Someone should make a good one. 02:18:34.000 --> 02:18:35.040 That's not the point. 02:18:35.040 --> 02:18:39.200 We're not cheering, we're not cheerleaders for a team. 02:18:39.200 --> 02:18:42.800 I believe and say I am Lutheran because that is shorthand for 02:18:42.800 --> 02:18:46.400 saying I subscribe to and agree with the doctrine that is in 02:18:46.400 --> 02:18:47.920 the Book of Concord. 02:18:47.920 --> 02:18:50.320 I agree with the historic Lutheran faith. 02:18:50.320 --> 02:18:53.600 It doesn't mean I agree with any Lutheran body. 02:18:53.600 --> 02:18:57.120 Insofar as the body agrees with the Book of Concord, the body 02:18:57.120 --> 02:18:59.360 is Lutheran, and then we'll agree. 02:18:59.360 --> 02:19:03.600 But just because they call themselves Lutheran doesn't mean they are. 02:19:03.600 --> 02:19:07.360 And I will extend the same charity to any other Christian. 02:19:07.360 --> 02:19:12.400 Just because the ELCA, Elkah, say that they're Lutheran, doesn't mean there 02:19:12.400 --> 02:19:13.760 are. They're Satanists. 02:19:13.760 --> 02:19:16.240 I'm not saying there are no Christians in Elkah, but I am 02:19:16.240 --> 02:19:18.240 questioning why they haven't left. 02:19:18.640 --> 02:19:21.280 The same thing is true for other denominations. 02:19:21.280 --> 02:19:25.520 PCUSA, as I'm sure our Presbyterian listeners and other Reformed listeners know, 02:19:25.520 --> 02:19:26.880 is apostate. 02:19:26.880 --> 02:19:29.920 That doesn't mean that the OPC is. 02:19:29.920 --> 02:19:32.560 The same thing is true of every denomination. 02:19:33.040 --> 02:19:39.040 There are faithful Christians across denominational and traditional lines in basically every 02:19:39.040 --> 02:19:40.720 body of Christendom. 02:19:40.720 --> 02:19:43.920 And I'll say that even of, say, the Oriental Orthodox, I am 02:19:43.920 --> 02:19:46.880 sure there are staunch Christians in that tradition. 02:19:46.880 --> 02:19:48.880 I am less familiar with them, so I don't know as much, 02:19:48.880 --> 02:19:51.760 but I am sure they have Christians there as well. 02:19:51.760 --> 02:19:54.400 And the reason for that is simple. 02:19:54.400 --> 02:19:58.960 Where God's word is read, where God's word is spoken, where God's 02:19:58.960 --> 02:20:04.160 word is proclaimed from the pulpit, it will not return to him 02:20:04.400 --> 02:20:07.600 void, because that is his promise in Scripture. 02:20:07.600 --> 02:20:10.880 And every one of God's promises is true, and so where God's 02:20:10.960 --> 02:20:15.200 word is read, there will always be true Christians. 02:20:15.200 --> 02:20:19.680 And so, even at the height of the problems of Rome in 02:20:19.680 --> 02:20:24.080 the Middle Ages around the Reformation, Europe was Christian. 02:20:24.080 --> 02:20:25.040 And Europe was Christian 02:20:26.000 --> 02:20:30.640 because the Word of God was still read. 02:20:30.640 --> 02:20:34.480 And so what we have to do is move forward together as 02:20:34.480 --> 02:20:38.720 Christians. The challenge that I would raise for any of our listeners 02:20:38.720 --> 02:20:40.480 is go over the creeds. 02:20:40.480 --> 02:20:43.280 See if you agree with every statement in the creeds because that's 02:20:43.200 --> 02:20:45.360 what the historic church has always taught. 02:20:45.360 --> 02:20:48.560 That is what all of your forebears in the faith have believed. 02:20:48.560 --> 02:20:52.480 That is what the men who came before you, many of whom 02:20:52.560 --> 02:20:55.920 quite frankly knew Scripture better than those of us in the modern 02:20:55.920 --> 02:21:00.480 world, that is what they believed, taught, and confessed. 02:21:00.480 --> 02:21:02.320 And so go over the creeds. 02:21:02.320 --> 02:21:05.040 See if you can agree with what the creeds say, and if 02:21:05.040 --> 02:21:08.560 you can't, figure out why. 02:21:08.560 --> 02:21:11.360 Because quite frankly, your soul is in danger if you're disagreeing with 02:21:11.360 --> 02:21:12.800 anything in the creeds. 02:21:12.800 --> 02:21:18.240 Because you are probably in a church that is teaching something falsely. 02:21:18.240 --> 02:21:22.000 Because you didn't get that idea from nowhere, that idea that disagrees 02:21:22.000 --> 02:21:25.440 with the creeds. 02:21:25.440 --> 02:21:31.920 And as Christian brothers and sisters, if we can manage to agree 02:21:31.920 --> 02:21:37.040 at the bare minimum on the content of the creeds, then surely 02:21:37.040 --> 02:21:41.040 we can set aside the other distinctives relatives at least in so 02:21:41.040 --> 02:21:46.000 far as they would cause conflict and work together in order to 02:21:46.000 --> 02:21:50.080 rebuild Christendom because that is our ultimate goal. 02:21:50.080 --> 02:21:54.560 Our ultimate goal is to make sure that we salvage the church, 02:21:54.560 --> 02:21:59.760 this shipwreck that has been created by previous generations, many of whom, 02:21:59.760 --> 02:22:03.520 over a course of decades, basically a century at this point, were 02:22:03.520 --> 02:22:05.520 largely faithless. 02:22:05.520 --> 02:22:09.680 That is the challenge ahead, and that is an incredible task. 02:22:09.680 --> 02:22:12.480 It's one that quite frankly we cannot achieve on our own. 02:22:12.480 --> 02:22:16.080 We can achieve it only if God is with us. 02:22:16.080 --> 02:22:20.960 But certainly God is going to be there to support us, to 02:22:20.960 --> 02:22:22.960 see us through this. 02:22:22.960 --> 02:22:25.600 But we have to do our part. 02:22:25.600 --> 02:22:29.200 I'm not saying that it's works, so I invite those who are 02:22:29.200 --> 02:22:32.000 a little more inclined to the works side of things to not 02:22:32.000 --> 02:22:34.160 get too excited about my words. 02:22:34.080 --> 02:22:39.120 Yes, we affirm works, because works are necessary insofar as they necessarily 02:22:39.120 --> 02:22:41.440 follow and flow from living faith. 02:22:41.680 --> 02:22:44.880 But works will not save you, and works will not save the 02:22:44.880 --> 02:22:48.160 church. But as Christians we have to do them, and that is 02:22:48.160 --> 02:22:53.040 obedience to God, and God blesses those who are obedient to his 02:22:53.360 --> 02:22:59.520 will. And so the bottom line is that regardless of whether or 02:22:59.520 --> 02:23:04.640 not we are polemical at certain times about certain things, and regardless 02:23:04.640 --> 02:23:07.360 of whether or not we have these disagreements, and I'm not saying 02:23:07.360 --> 02:23:10.560 set them aside, don't, you can still disagree, but there is a 02:23:10.560 --> 02:23:12.400 time and a place. 02:23:12.480 --> 02:23:15.680 You don't argue with your wife in public. 02:23:15.680 --> 02:23:18.240 You may have a disagreement with her in private, and that's fine, 02:23:18.240 --> 02:23:20.000 that's where you have that disagreement. 02:23:20.000 --> 02:23:23.680 Families, when they have disagreements, have those in private. 02:23:23.680 --> 02:23:26.000 You don't air your dirty laundry. 02:23:26.000 --> 02:23:29.360 We should be doing the same thing as the church, and in 02:23:29.360 --> 02:23:31.440 this case I mean the church universal. 02:23:31.440 --> 02:23:37.680 All believers, regardless of denomination or tradition, don't air the dirty laundry 02:23:37.680 --> 02:23:40.640 publicly. Have the disagreements. 02:23:40.640 --> 02:23:43.920 And yes, by publicly I don't mean that you can't use Twitter. 02:23:43.920 --> 02:23:46.960 Obviously that's one of the ways we communicate these days. 02:23:46.960 --> 02:23:50.400 I am saying that we set those aside when we move into 02:23:50.400 --> 02:23:53.680 the public sphere, which is to say, when it comes to the 02:23:53.680 --> 02:23:57.040 political, when it comes to the left hand kingdom, if we are 02:23:57.040 --> 02:24:03.840 cooperating in those endeavors, we set aside these denominational and traditional distinctions 02:24:04.560 --> 02:24:10.720 that do not, or at least should not, hinder Christian cooperation. 02:24:10.720 --> 02:24:13.840 And I think that we have to found that Christian cooperation on 02:24:13.840 --> 02:24:15.280 the creeds. 02:24:15.440 --> 02:24:18.000 Because that is the bare minimum. 02:24:18.000 --> 02:24:23.520 That is a summary statement of what God says in Scripture. 02:24:23.520 --> 02:24:27.520 It is a summary statement of what Christians have always believed, and 02:24:27.520 --> 02:24:32.000 it is a summary statement of the foundation on which we can 02:24:32.000 --> 02:24:37.120 rebuild Christendom, and then of course we can get back to bickering, 02:24:37.120 --> 02:24:40.880 as we will inevitably do until Christ returns.