WEBVTT 00:00:37.040 --> 00:00:39.600 Welcome to the Stone Choir Podcast. 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:40.480 I am Corey J. 00:00:40.720 --> 00:00:44.560 Mahler, and I'm still woe. 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:44.880 On 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.080 today's Stone Choir, we are going to be discussing the subject of 00:00:48.080 --> 00:00:49.840 Eastern Orthodoxy. 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:53.840 This is a subject that we've had requested many, many times, pretty 00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:57.440 much since we began doing stone choir, and we've avoided it nearly 00:00:57.440 --> 00:01:02.240 as long because frankly it's unpleasant to delve into and it's one 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:04.960 that's gonna get people riled up in ways that are not at 00:01:04.960 --> 00:01:06.240 all productive. 00:01:06.240 --> 00:01:08.960 But the reason that we're going to discuss it today is that 00:01:08.960 --> 00:01:11.200 there are a lot of you who are asking for the sake 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:15.280 of friends who are in the same position as all of us. 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:17.600 You're in a world that is on fire. 00:01:17.600 --> 00:01:21.520 You see churches that are becoming more faithless by the day. 00:01:21.520 --> 00:01:26.080 And you have friends who are looking around at that and thinking, 00:01:26.080 --> 00:01:28.880 I need to go find real Christianity somewhere because I think 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:33.840 real Christianity has to be the solution to what I'm seeing in 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:34.480 the world. 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:35.600 And that's absolutely true. 00:01:35.600 --> 00:01:41.200 Like that is a godly impulse, the problem, and as we've said 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:43.520 in the past, the reason that I in particular and the Corey 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:47.920 also have spent several years reaching out to men on the right 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:53.520 in this political sphere to discuss religion is that most people is 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.720 especially if you're kind of starting from a you know dead stop 00:01:56.960 --> 00:01:59.280 or you've been away from church for a long time and you 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:02.720 probably never paid much attention to begin with. 00:02:02.720 --> 00:02:06.640 When you look at the state of the various churches, you're probably 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:09.280 not equipped to Equipped to judge their theology. 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:11.360 And that's not anything to be ashamed of. 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:12.400 It's not insulting. 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:14.400 It's you're starting from zero. 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:18.000 Whatever you know today about whatever church you're going to become interested 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:21.440 in, you know the least amount today that you will ever know 00:02:21.440 --> 00:02:23.680 about it for the rest of your life, because you're gonna spend 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:26.400 more time learning about it and maybe you like it, maybe you 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:29.760 don't. If you become more invested, you're gonna know a lot more 00:02:29.760 --> 00:02:32.560 a year from now than you do today. 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:37.440 The problem is that when someone is starting from zero, you don't 00:02:37.440 --> 00:02:40.080 know how to weigh the various claims, you know how to weigh 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:42.000 the various doctrines. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.800 And one thing that I noticed years ago on the right was 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:52.720 the guys in that situation not understanding the theology stuff apart from 00:02:52.720 --> 00:02:55.920 like the very basic like if you're trying to trans kids and 00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:00.320 you know all that all the obvious wicked things that are happening 00:03:00.320 --> 00:03:01.360 out in public today. 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:02.080 That's obvious. 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:04.400 You can tell that's morality. 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:09.840 The other distinctive marks of particular churches, usually there's going to be 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:12.160 someone's going to look for historical claims. 00:03:12.160 --> 00:03:13.360 Who has a better historical claim 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:20.640 on the oldest version of Christianity, or the purest version, or the 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:22.640 most involved version? 00:03:22.640 --> 00:03:28.080 You know, maybe the liturgical practices and the vestments and the beauty 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:32.960 of Rome and of the East are marks of the church that 00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:35.680 you can rely on even when you don't know how to judge 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:37.920 their claims based on scripture. 00:03:37.920 --> 00:03:41.840 And so I particularly, and I think Corey also began talking about 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:47.760 Lutheranism as we were discussing religion and politics, because we believe that 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:53.200 there are actually Protestant versions of what those men are seeking that 00:03:53.200 --> 00:03:56.800 do not involve going east or going to Rome. 00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:59.280 And but we have to make the case. 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:02.160 Like if if all you know in the world is that well 00:04:02.320 --> 00:04:06.640 I see these parishes or you know these dioceses that are full 00:04:06.640 --> 00:04:10.000 of young kids and full of families, and I know that that 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:12.000 is a mark of God's blessing. 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.440 I'm gonna take whatever else is in that place and you know 00:04:15.600 --> 00:04:17.360 hope that God will bless that as well. 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:19.120 It's a reasonable calculation. 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:23.360 The problem is that there are things about theology that God will 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:26.400 bless us even when we are dumb. 00:04:26.400 --> 00:04:29.520 That's I I think it's so it's a recurring theme. 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:33.440 You can You can disobey God in some areas, but your obedience 00:04:33.440 --> 00:04:38.240 to God in others will necessarily have the blessing attached to the 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:39.680 act that is obedience. 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:42.400 And this occurs even for the faithless, even for someone who hasn't 00:04:42.400 --> 00:04:44.240 anything about Christianity. 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:48.080 If they get married, if they're faithful to their spouse, if they 00:04:48.080 --> 00:04:51.840 do not use contraception, you're gonna have lots of kids. 00:04:51.840 --> 00:04:53.360 That's a blessing from God. 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:55.200 It's free to everybody. 00:04:55.200 --> 00:05:00.160 Christianity should properly teach you why that happens, how that happens, that 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:01.360 it's a blessing. 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:04.960 But anyone anywhere who's doing the right things is going to be 00:05:04.960 --> 00:05:09.040 blessed. Hindus have growing families, Muslims have growing families. 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:14.720 That's God blessing them in one sense, but it's not because they 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:18.880 are obeying the creator whom they know, it's simply because they are 00:05:18.880 --> 00:05:22.160 following the pattern that God established in creation. 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:24.560 So there's certain things in churches that you can point to and 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:28.000 say, yeah, that looks good, and it's true, but it does not 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:30.240 prove the theology of the place. 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:34.480 So today as we discuss Eastern Orthodoxy, it's gonna be in two 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:36.480 parts, and the the latter part of the the bulk of this 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:40.480 is going to be about the theology and the profound errors in 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:41.840 the theology. 00:05:41.840 --> 00:05:42.160 And 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:47.520 I want you to think of this episode as being structurally very 00:05:47.520 --> 00:05:52.000 similar to the episode that we did on Martin Luther King, our 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:55.440 charitic, and on Bonhoffer. 00:05:55.440 --> 00:05:58.160 And both of those, we didn't try to debunk every single thing 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:00.480 that those guys taught or said or did. 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.720 We focused on a few key areas to demonstrate 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:08.960 the presence of these teachings cannot possibly be in the hearts or 00:06:08.960 --> 00:06:10.640 mouths of Christians. 00:06:10.640 --> 00:06:14.640 And therefore, you don't need to debunk every single possible permutation of 00:06:14.640 --> 00:06:17.040 whatever they say They said or thought at this time or that 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:22.400 time, the presence of certain things naturally demonstrates this is not Christian. 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:25.520 that's something that anyone can understand. 00:06:25.520 --> 00:06:28.480 So that's going to be approach that we take today. 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:31.680 The bulk of this, the latter portion is going to be theological. 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:36.960 We're going to begin just briefly with a bit of historical context, 00:06:36.960 --> 00:06:40.480 mostly today, mostly in the last century, about why we're even talking 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:45.360 about orthodoxy to begin with, because one of the things that to 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:50.160 their credit the Orthodox have managed to preserve even though almost all 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:55.040 other churches have lost, is the notion that a church is fundamentally 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.640 racial. It's fundamentally tied to a particular nation. 00:06:58.640 --> 00:07:01.920 You have blood, soil, culture, and religion. 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:04.720 And those four things are inextricably bound. 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:07.760 In space and a place and time with a people. 00:07:07.760 --> 00:07:11.200 And when you change any one of those four things, you have 00:07:11.200 --> 00:07:13.360 a different kind of people. 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:16.320 That's the one of the chief problems in Ireland. 00:07:16.320 --> 00:07:19.120 You have Protestant Irish and you have Irish Catholics. 00:07:19.280 --> 00:07:24.560 They're mostly racially homogeneous, but they're divided by religion. 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:28.400 And it's a profound division that has caused political divisions and warfare 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:30.880 and strife and misery for centuries. 00:07:30.880 --> 00:07:35.280 When we look at Eastern Orthodoxy, they're mostly broken down by various 00:07:35.280 --> 00:07:37.040 national churches, which is a good thing. 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:41.280 That's something that's been preserved from the very beginning of Christianity. 00:07:41.280 --> 00:07:45.040 And that in and of itself is commendable. 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:48.800 Where it becomes something that is Americans, most of our audience is 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:53.760 American, is a matter of skepticism, is that why are we in 00:07:53.760 --> 00:07:59.920 the 21st century seeing so many people on social media adopting Eastern 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:05.200 Orthodoxy, mostly Russian Orthodoxy, some Greek Orthodoxy, or some other permutation. 00:08:05.200 --> 00:08:08.000 Usually just, you know, maybe if you have a local parish. 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:10.000 In a lot of cases people are just kind of doing it 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.160 based on YouTube channels. 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:15.040 And it's not even that they're making a connection with a local 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:19.440 church. They're just making a connection with some ideology that they found 00:08:19.440 --> 00:08:20.160 on the internet. 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:23.360 Yeah, we've we've had people who've have told me on Twitter and 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:25.360 elsewhere, you know, I don't have a church to go to, I 00:08:25.760 --> 00:08:27.440 listen to Stone Choir on Sunday. 00:08:27.440 --> 00:08:30.080 And I beg them, and I'm begging you if you do that, 00:08:30.080 --> 00:08:31.520 this is not church. 00:08:31.520 --> 00:08:36.160 We are we're not pastors, this is not the sort of fellowship 00:08:36.160 --> 00:08:38.080 that you get when you go to church. 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:40.400 We never want anyone to think or to do that. 00:08:40.400 --> 00:08:43.280 We hope that it's valuable teaching and it should be edifying and 00:08:43.280 --> 00:08:46.560 it should be good study and impetus for you to go join 00:08:46.560 --> 00:08:50.720 churches to study your Bible to do all of the other regular 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:54.160 Christian things that should be part of all of our lives. 00:08:54.160 --> 00:08:56.080 And a lot more people have been doing that. 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:58.560 So it's not that it's not that stone choir is has been 00:08:58.560 --> 00:08:59.520 a replacement for church. 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:02.880 it's usually people who really don't feel like they have any options. 00:09:02.880 --> 00:09:05.600 Uh would encourage any of you if that's the boat you feel 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:08.800 like you're in, to the best of your ability, please try to 00:09:08.800 --> 00:09:09.760 find a congregation. 00:09:09.760 --> 00:09:12.880 I'm always happy to help people try to get connected with somebody 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:15.680 you know in the area that's at least gonna be a decent 00:09:15.680 --> 00:09:20.640 congregation, but a YouTube channel, a podcast, is not the fellowship of 00:09:20.640 --> 00:09:21.360 the saints. 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:23.360 You're just listening to a couple of guys talk. 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:27.600 That's not it's not the equivalent of attending church and hearing the 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:32.960 word preached and receiving forgiveness and absolution, and all the benefits of 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:37.600 fellowship that come from actually participating in the divine service. 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:44.240 The issue with the social media context of orthodoxy is that it 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:48.720 is it is a racial church in that virtually all of the 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:54.240 adherents in America today, the overwhelming majority are foreigners. 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:58.400 Pew data, the Pew Data study in 2013, which is the most 00:09:58.400 --> 00:10:02.320 recent data I have, it's probably changed some, but as many immigrants 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:06.240 as we're having come in from these countries, I doubt that it 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:08.320 would change the ratio that much. 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:12.480 So So his data's 10 years old at this point, but in 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:16.480 Eastern Orthodox congregations in this country, 40% were immigrants. 00:10:16.560 --> 00:10:18.960 40% were fresh off the boat. 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:20.960 Second generation was 22%. 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:24.640 So only 36% were at least third generation. 00:10:24.640 --> 00:10:28.720 And we know just historically that it probably is mostly third generation 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.120 because orthodoxy has never had any sort of historical foothold in the 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:37.360 United States, which is not to be explicit is not an argument 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:38.560 against it being bad theology. 00:10:38.560 --> 00:10:39.680 We're gonna deal with that later. 00:10:39.680 --> 00:10:44.880 You know, Lutheranism existed prior to the foundation of you know the 00:10:44.880 --> 00:10:49.200 United States in 1776, but most Lutheranism today, at least what we 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.640 consider good Lutheranism, came over in the 1840s. 00:10:52.640 --> 00:10:54.720 So that's kind of new too. 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:57.280 It's not a bad thing for new people to show up with 00:10:57.280 --> 00:10:59.280 new teachings by itself. 00:10:59.680 --> 00:11:01.360 So I want to make make explicit. 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:03.680 I'm not making that an argument against orthodoxy. 00:11:03.680 --> 00:11:06.240 I just think that it's important to know that when you see 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:10.320 the huge volume of people, especially on Twitter but elsewhere on social 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:17.360 media, getting interested in orthodoxy, they're adopting religions that have come 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:19.920 in with foreigners to our lands. 00:11:19.920 --> 00:11:21.200 That could be good or bad. 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:24.480 Again, that's not a value judgment, but it is it's a key 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:29.600 fact that if you go down this path, you're adopting something alien. 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:33.840 And as we look at some of the beliefs that those people 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:36.320 have, and just to give you a sense of numbers, uh both 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:40.480 Pew in twenty thirteen and PRRI in twenty twenty when they did 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:45.520 surveys, they both pegged the number of Eastern Orthodox adherents on this 00:11:45.520 --> 00:11:50.000 continent in the United States in particular about one point seven million. 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:51.600 That's not that many people. 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:53.520 It's about the same numbers in the LCMS. 00:11:53.520 --> 00:11:56.320 So again, I'm not making an argument that certain number is good 00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:58.240 and then and a different number is invalid. 00:11:58.240 --> 00:11:58.960 That's not the point. 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:02.800 It's just I want to go to the pew answers that came 00:12:02.800 --> 00:12:04.560 from that 2013 study. 00:12:04.560 --> 00:12:09.520 Uh, this was the largest most recent study that anyone has done 00:12:09.520 --> 00:12:12.240 of Christianity in the United States. 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:17.280 They asked a large number of questions about a variety of topics 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:20.560 for narrowing down to particular subsets. 00:12:20.560 --> 00:12:24.800 And so it's a great way to contrast what one group believes 00:12:24.800 --> 00:12:25.840 versus another group. 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:28.000 And I'm going to give you some of these numbers and we're 00:12:27.920 --> 00:12:31.600 not really going to contrast them with other denominations. 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:33.840 I will tell you that as you hear these numbers are going 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:34.720 to be surprising. 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.080 And I can tell you that for the most part, Lutheranism fares 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:39.280 a lot better. 00:12:39.280 --> 00:12:43.520 But we're not trying to make the argument here either that, well, 00:12:43.520 --> 00:12:47.200 these survey answers are bad, therefore it's not a good religion. 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:51.200 What I do want to make clear is that when you are 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:53.920 trying to get your bearings, you're trying to figure out like uh 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:54.960 what's a good church? 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:58.720 what's a church that's traditional, some degree of based, you know, like 00:12:58.880 --> 00:13:05.120 whatever your metric is for finding some true version of Christianity, keep 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:08.400 these numbers in mind because this is what is actually being produced 00:13:08.400 --> 00:13:12.640 in Eastern Orthodox congregations in this country. 00:13:12.640 --> 00:13:14.320 Belief in God. 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:18.640 61% strongly or believe in God. 00:13:18.640 --> 00:13:21.680 Either they believe or they're absolutely certain that God exists. 00:13:21.760 --> 00:13:25.040 29% believe in God fairly certain. 00:13:25.040 --> 00:13:30.080 Seven percent believe in God not too certain, and three percent don't 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:30.880 believe it all. 00:13:30.880 --> 00:13:34.080 Like the three percent's an anomaly, but I think the fact that 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:39.440 only sixty-one percent can effectively say, yeah, God is real, that's shockingly 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:42.160 low for a Christian denomination. 00:13:42.160 --> 00:13:45.920 For 29% to be like, eh, then God's probably real. 00:13:45.920 --> 00:13:49.120 Like that's just by itself, that is 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:52.640 Not the hallmark of sound teaching. 00:13:52.640 --> 00:13:55.040 And again, it's not simply Eastern Orthodoxy. 00:13:55.040 --> 00:13:57.600 This is repeated in a lot of other denominations. 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:02.960 A lot of Protestant denominations, especially mainline ones, are in worse shape. 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:06.480 So like I'm not we're not trying to compare apples and oranges. 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:10.800 I'm just trying to say that as an exclusive measure, if you 00:14:10.800 --> 00:14:14.320 look at this sort of answer, you should not find it in 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:17.520 something if you're looking for a based traditional church. 00:14:17.520 --> 00:14:20.320 Doubt about God at nearly 40%. 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:24.400 No. Party affiliation, you know, this is one that's not at all 00:14:24.400 --> 00:14:30.400 related to religion explicitly, but forty-four percent of Orthodox in this country 00:14:30.400 --> 00:14:31.840 are Democrats. 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:36.400 Which makes perfect sense when you understand that two-thirds of them are 00:14:36.400 --> 00:14:40.240 immigrants. they're fresh off the boat or they're kids of immigrants. 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:42.480 Those people are overwhelmingly Democrats. 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:43.520 That's always been the case. 00:14:43.520 --> 00:14:45.040 They're much more liberal. 00:14:45.040 --> 00:14:47.840 They are not interested in this country. 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:50.080 They're interested in what they can get from it, but they're not 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:53.360 interested in the political values of a of America. 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:57.840 So and you know, again, the Orthodox churches are not changing people's 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:04.640 hearts. Views about abortion, fifty-three percent say legal in almost all cases, 00:15:04.640 --> 00:15:07.040 but forty-five percent say illegal. 00:15:07.040 --> 00:15:10.240 I mean that's that's actually a number that's similar to the LCMS. 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:12.160 It's i it's obscene. 00:15:12.160 --> 00:15:14.560 Everyone who would say that is not a Christian. 00:15:14.560 --> 00:15:17.760 If you think that murdering children is okay, you're you're not a 00:15:17.760 --> 00:15:19.040 Christian, period. 00:15:19.040 --> 00:15:23.040 You cannot murder infants in the womb and expect to go to 00:15:23.040 --> 00:15:28.000 heaven. So again, this is not a case of one denomination is 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.560 doing really great and other is doing poorly, but when you look 00:15:30.560 --> 00:15:35.520 at that number, that's just that's impermissibly evil, and it's over half 00:15:35.520 --> 00:15:36.560 of them. 00:15:36.560 --> 00:15:40.800 Homosexuality, 62% say should be accepted. 00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:44.080 Sodomite marriage, 54% strongly favor. 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:48.080 So just in a brief survey, if you're looking for based church, 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.320 it's not orthodoxy, period. 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:54.880 Whatever you see online, whatever you know, desert father somebody wants to 00:15:54.880 --> 00:15:58.320 quote and say, oh, well, XYZ says that we must believe this. 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:01.280 The truth on the ground when you talk to the people in 00:16:01.280 --> 00:16:04.800 those churches is it's liberal. 00:16:04.800 --> 00:16:07.600 They're basically Episcopalians at this point. 00:16:07.920 --> 00:16:11.440 And the last one I found interesting was views about human evolution. 00:16:11.520 --> 00:16:15.040 Uh twenty-nine percent said we definitely evolved. 00:16:15.040 --> 00:16:18.560 Twenty-five percent say we evolved, but due to God's design. 00:16:18.560 --> 00:16:21.200 Both of those are old earth, both of those are saying that 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:25.280 Genesis is a lie, Adam never existed, we came from monkeys. 00:16:25.280 --> 00:16:28.960 Only thirty-six percent say that we all ex always existed in present 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:33.680 form. Again, not base church, not Christian doctrine at all, but we're 00:16:33.680 --> 00:16:37.440 talking about extremely liberal views in the pews, or I mean in 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:39.280 a lot of them don't have pews, so that's kind of a 00:16:39.280 --> 00:16:42.320 misnomer. Pardon my Lutheranism. 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:45.520 This sort of belief is not what you should be looking for 00:16:45.520 --> 00:16:46.800 in a church, any church. 00:16:46.800 --> 00:16:50.480 Yeah, you could look at these survey results all by themselves, knowing 00:16:51.040 --> 00:16:55.760 nothing about any denominations or any history or where they're from, or 00:16:55.760 --> 00:16:59.520 understanding scripture at all, and know that if the majority of people 00:16:59.520 --> 00:17:03.200 in the pews or in the in the church are they're Democrats, 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:08.400 they're pro-abortion, they're pro-sodomy, they uh pro-evolution. 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:10.720 That's not historic Christianity. 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:12.800 That's not the Christianity you should want. 00:17:12.800 --> 00:17:14.640 Period. Even if you know nothing. 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:17.600 And then when you start looking at why, it starts to make 00:17:17.600 --> 00:17:19.040 sense when you look at some of the doctrines. 00:17:19.280 --> 00:17:21.760 it makes sense why they would be so liberal. 00:17:21.760 --> 00:17:24.160 So I just hope that in this brief few minutes we could 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:29.840 have established that the memes and the the chest beating and thumping 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:35.920 and the vigorous youthful energy that you find on social media for 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:38.320 guys saying, yes, I'm extremely based. 00:17:38.320 --> 00:17:43.440 I'm finding an extremely based church They're not going to be finding 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:48.240 it in Easter Orthodoxy because this is what their doctrines are producing. 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:53.040 The people who believe and attend these congregations, this is how they 00:17:53.040 --> 00:17:54.480 turn out. 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:58.000 And the subject of attendance, you know, is as we look specifically 00:17:58.320 --> 00:18:04.160 at the racial nature of some of these churches, Russian Orthodoxy is 00:18:04.320 --> 00:18:07.040 is one of the biggest examples. 00:18:07.040 --> 00:18:12.160 And I think the Russian Orthodox in particular are a crucial part 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:15.120 of all of this in terms of why it's been memed so 00:18:15.120 --> 00:18:16.720 heavily online, because 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:22.720 when you look at the history of Christianity in the USSR between 00:18:22.800 --> 00:18:27.120 1917 and the collapse of the Soviet Union, what you will find 00:18:27.120 --> 00:18:32.080 was that there was a 25-year period beginning with the revolution where 00:18:32.080 --> 00:18:32.480 Christianity 00:18:33.600 --> 00:18:36.720 was effectively stamped out. 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:41.680 It was not illegal for you to privately be Christian, but they 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.960 murdered hundreds of thousands of priests or they arrested them. 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:48.160 They destroyed or took most of the church property. 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:53.680 They burst basically persecuted the Russian Orthodox Church almost out of existence. 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:58.160 And it wasn't until Stalin had been in power for a while 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:04.400 and the Germans had opened up the Eastern Front and were invading 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:05.840 Russia, that 00:19:06.800 --> 00:19:12.720 Stalin realized the need for bringing back the sort of patriotic fervor 00:19:12.800 --> 00:19:18.800 that the religion of Russian Orthodoxy in particular brought to the people. 00:19:18.800 --> 00:19:22.960 Because basically everyone in Russia effectively was Russian Orthodox. 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:26.880 Historically, there were quite a few Lutherans in Russia for centuries, but 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:28.320 it was an ethnic church. 00:19:28.320 --> 00:19:32.160 Again, it was Germans who had been imported centuries prior to do 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:34.480 particular work in particular places. 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:39.360 And up until nineteen oh five, it was It was permissible to 00:19:39.360 --> 00:19:44.240 be a Lutheran in Russian territory, but Lutherans were not permitted to 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:48.000 have their liturgy in the Russian language, and they were also not 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:51.920 permitted to proselytize to ethnic Russians. 00:19:52.080 --> 00:19:57.120 So basically, this is what amounted to pluralism and religious tolerance in 00:19:57.120 --> 00:19:58.480 prior centuries. 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:01.840 If you are an alien and you come into a land, perhaps 00:20:01.840 --> 00:20:05.760 you'll be permitted, perhaps you'll be given some space and some territory, 00:20:05.760 --> 00:20:10.320 and you'll be permitted to practice your own strange foreign religion, but 00:20:10.320 --> 00:20:12.240 you cannot corrupt anyone local. 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.200 You cannot reach out to the locals in Russia and turn them 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:20.480 into German Lutherans, because it's it was seen as a foreign religion. 00:20:21.760 --> 00:20:23.600 So as a result, when 00:20:24.800 --> 00:20:29.840 when the Soviet Union, when when Jewish atheists stamped out Christianity for 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:35.680 25 years in Russia, they were almost exclusively targeting Russian Orthodox, just 00:20:35.760 --> 00:20:37.200 because that's most of what was there. 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:41.760 And everyone else was was completely either exterminated or gulagged. 00:20:41.760 --> 00:20:46.160 The most of the the remnant of Lutherans ended up in Siberia. 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:49.040 And so at the fall of the Soviet Union, the Siberian Lutheran 00:20:49.040 --> 00:20:54.240 Church was reconstituted with significant support from the LCMS. 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:57.840 Something very crucial happened in 1943. 00:20:57.840 --> 00:21:04.800 After 25 years of Russian Orthodoxy being crushed by the Jewish atheist 00:21:04.800 --> 00:21:10.240 Soviets, they then made it legal in a In a broader context, 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:12.880 and was done for geopolitical purposes. 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.200 Stalin did not have a change of heart. 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:20.960 What Stalin realized was that as they were looking towards the future, 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:26.720 towards the end of the war, and hopefully expanding westward into Europe, 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:32.560 and in terms of ginning up support against the invading Germans. 00:21:32.560 --> 00:21:34.560 One of the things that the Germans did is they were taking 00:21:35.040 --> 00:21:39.360 territory in the East was they liberalized many of the things that 00:21:39.360 --> 00:21:41.520 the Russians had made illegal. 00:21:41.520 --> 00:21:47.600 So Stalin realized that if he retook lands, Russian lands or Russian 00:21:47.600 --> 00:21:51.520 controlled lands that the Germans had occupied and the Germans had permitted 00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:52.800 Christianity again. 00:21:52.800 --> 00:21:55.760 If the Russians came back in and stamped it out in just 00:21:55.760 --> 00:21:58.800 a couple of years, it was going to be a huge problem 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:01.200 politically. And so what'd he do? 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:06.960 He invited in a man, a couple men, and basically made them 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:11.520 swear fealty and reconstituted the Moscow Patriarchate. 00:22:11.520 --> 00:22:14.880 And it was interesting if they chose that particular name because that 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:19.360 name had been extinguished two hundred odd years prior. 00:22:19.360 --> 00:22:22.800 It's something that had existed three hundred fifty years before, but I 00:22:22.800 --> 00:22:25.040 believe I think it was Peter the Great got rid of it 00:22:25.040 --> 00:22:26.080 and changed the name. 00:22:26.080 --> 00:22:32.320 So when Stalin repristinated Russian Orthodoxy, he didn't go back to nineteen 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:33.520 eighteen version. 00:22:33.520 --> 00:22:36.720 He branded it as a version that was three hundred fifty years 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:41.840 old. And that was a way of disconnecting what Soviets believed and 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:45.280 remembered from their own living memory and said this is something much 00:22:45.280 --> 00:22:48.960 older. And that was a way for him to borrow 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:51.760 the cultural effect. 00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:56.160 Affinity the Russians had for that thing without being necessarily bound to 00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:57.360 the teachings. 00:22:57.360 --> 00:23:02.800 Because when Stalin reconstituted Russian Orthodoxy, it was as an arm of 00:23:02.800 --> 00:23:03.600 the state. 00:23:03.600 --> 00:23:06.880 It was no longer the religion that it had been previously. 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.320 It was a state religion at this point that was permitted because 00:23:10.320 --> 00:23:15.360 it was a political vehic vehicle for Soviet ends. 00:23:15.360 --> 00:23:18.400 And there's a an article that I'll link in the show notes 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:23.680 notes. Uh it's from a former former Mellon part fellow who was 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:24.720 in the State Department. 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:26.640 It's basically a bad guy. 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:29.440 So if you think the bad guys writing about this stuff is 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.480 completely legitimate, all I can say is grow up. 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:35.520 You know, if if the bad guys were so terrible that all 00:23:35.520 --> 00:23:38.400 they ever did was lie 100% of the time, they would be 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:39.280 no threat. 00:23:39.280 --> 00:23:43.680 Most of the time the bad guys tell enough truth that they 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:46.000 can get by with whatever lies they're pushing. 00:23:46.080 --> 00:23:48.960 I don't think there are many lies in the article, but it's 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:55.760 a useful view because it goes over how Stalin used restoring Russian 00:23:55.760 --> 00:23:58.480 Orthodoxy as a means of political control. 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:01.440 And it's one that was extended up until the very end. 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:06.400 Even as liberalization was occurring, it was still not nearly the same 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:10.080 degree of Christian freedom that existed in nineteen seventy. 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:15.200 So the reason this matters today is that Putin was a KGB 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.440 agent. That's like being CIA. 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:19.360 You don't stop being CIA. 00:24:19.360 --> 00:24:21.520 You are KGB forever. 00:24:21.520 --> 00:24:25.360 And Putin was fairly senior when the Soviet Union collapsed and he 00:24:25.360 --> 00:24:26.560 moved into power. 00:24:26.560 --> 00:24:29.520 He was trained under the Soviet system. 00:24:29.520 --> 00:24:34.560 And all the things that the Soviets developed over, you know, 70 00:24:34.560 --> 00:24:36.800 years prior were designed 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:42.640 around using cultural tools to maintain political control. 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:45.840 As we mentioned in the second episode on Martin Luther King, where 00:24:45.840 --> 00:24:49.680 we talked about his political side, we talked about the pact and 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:55.200 then the nineteen twenties, the Soviet Jews created the strategy of using 00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:59.040 racial stratification in the United States as a political weapon to collapse 00:24:59.040 --> 00:25:00.080 us from the inside. 00:25:00.080 --> 00:25:05.120 And then Martin Luther King Jr's handlers were Soviet agents. 00:25:05.120 --> 00:25:09.600 They were using the civil rights movement specifically to collapse the United 00:25:09.600 --> 00:25:11.840 States in the 60s. 00:25:11.840 --> 00:25:15.040 It is my belief, and I'm not going to present any evidence. 00:25:15.040 --> 00:25:15.920 I don't have it. 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.080 But and so some of you are going to kind of find 00:25:18.080 --> 00:25:19.440 this completely unsatisfying. 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.640 But I think that when you look at the way these things 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.480 are being memed online today, and when you look at the history 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:30.560 of the way Russians, you know, when they were Soviet, but they 00:25:30.560 --> 00:25:31.120 didn't change. 00:25:31.120 --> 00:25:34.880 You know, like the the flag changed, the the stationary changed. 00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:38.240 It was the same people with the same training, the same mindset. 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:39.680 Putin didn't change. 00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:43.440 He became more convinced than ever that he had to do whatever 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:47.200 was necessary to preserve the Russian way of life as he saw 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:51.840 fit. And he enriched himself to great means in the process. 00:25:51.840 --> 00:25:56.400 I believe that when you look at the sort of affinity that 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:01.920 is being developed on social media today for orthodoxy in particular, I 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:05.280 think that you have to look at it in geopolitical terms. 00:26:05.280 --> 00:26:10.240 Because again, churches are always necessarily racial. 00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:12.080 And it's not an exclusive claim. 00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:14.640 It's not saying if you're not German you can't come to a 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:16.000 Lutheran church. 00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:19.760 But the fact is that ninety-four percent of Lutheran churches are white 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:21.280 even today. 00:26:21.280 --> 00:26:25.680 Despite Lutheran's best efforts for over a century to try to reach 00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:29.280 out in particular to the African American community, they don't want any 00:26:29.280 --> 00:26:30.800 part of it. 00:26:30.800 --> 00:26:33.680 Okay, that's you know, at some point you have to shake the 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:35.760 dust off your feet. 00:26:35.760 --> 00:26:41.280 When we look at how things get memed online, it's important to 00:26:41.280 --> 00:26:43.520 remember that this is a battle space. 00:26:43.520 --> 00:26:46.640 It's battling for the hearts and minds of people globally. 00:26:46.800 --> 00:26:49.840 And there are certain entities that are going to be operating on 00:26:49.840 --> 00:26:51.680 the internet with complete impunity. 00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:54.560 And we've we've seen the past when there have been outages or 00:26:54.560 --> 00:26:58.480 events where suddenly, you know, all the shilling on 4chan just vanishes 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:03.600 or funding expires and suddenly all the moderators go away on some 00:27:03.600 --> 00:27:04.240 other form. 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:08.560 Like it's you can occasionally see the cracks through the curtain and 00:27:08.560 --> 00:27:13.440 find that what was being portrayed as completely organic, natural, just people 00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:20.160 talk on forms, is revealed to actually be paid orchestrated action. 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:24.640 That is certainly the case with some of this stuff because If 00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:30.480 you have affinity for Eastern Orthodoxy, you're naturally going to have affinity 00:27:31.040 --> 00:27:32.560 mostly for Russia. 00:27:32.560 --> 00:27:36.000 Now, obviously, there's strongly held views on both sides because of what's 00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:40.720 gone on recently in Ukraine, and there all sorts of historical infighting 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:45.120 among the various orthodox groups, but one of the things that's been 00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:49.360 very clearly laid out as we've seen just the last c couple 00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:56.240 years online, anyone who becomes involved in affinity for Russian Orthodoxy or 00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:00.880 Eastern Orthodoxy is inherently very pro-Russian. 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:04.000 That has been virtually all of my experience watching this for many 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:06.400 years. I don't believe that's a coincidence. 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.960 I believe that is a desirable outcome. 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.000 Now, again, this is not a theological argument against the belief system 00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:16.240 of the Orthodox. 00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:18.960 It is simply to illustrate that when you're trying to look at 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.800 these these patterns and these beliefs as they're playing out in the 00:28:22.800 --> 00:28:24.640 world, you're dealing with human beings. 00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:27.200 And human beings are you're never only religious. 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:28.640 You're never only political. 00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:29.360 You shouldn't be. 00:28:29.360 --> 00:28:32.400 I mean, if you're only ever political, that's also your religion. 00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:34.240 So you can't escape it. 00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:37.360 We're always multiple things at the same time. 00:28:37.360 --> 00:28:37.680 And 00:28:38.560 --> 00:28:41.840 so it is entirely not only permissible but necessary when you're looking 00:28:41.840 --> 00:28:42.000 at 00:28:43.760 --> 00:28:47.280 something like orthodoxy coming out of nowhere on social media in the 00:28:47.280 --> 00:28:49.440 last few years, and it's it's pervasive. 00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.880 Like if you judge from Twitter, you would think that orthodoxy, I 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:56.160 mean it's it's kind of like Africans in TV commercials. 00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:57.920 You just see it everywhere. 00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.560 It's in no way representative of reality. 00:29:00.560 --> 00:29:04.320 It's just it's representative of a small corner of social media. 00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:07.520 These things have influence though, because if you think well everybody's like 00:29:07.520 --> 00:29:09.600 that, then well it it must be normal. 00:29:09.600 --> 00:29:11.760 If there's a lot of it, it must be normal. 00:29:11.760 --> 00:29:14.800 Again, it's not an argument against orthodoxy per se. 00:29:14.800 --> 00:29:16.400 It's simply to say that 00:29:17.360 --> 00:29:21.760 when we look in the historical context, we see that Russia has 00:29:21.760 --> 00:29:25.120 always viewed culture as a weapon. 00:29:25.120 --> 00:29:28.400 You know, the the joke has always been that someone, no one's 00:29:28.320 --> 00:29:30.320 a KGB agent on foreign soil. 00:29:30.320 --> 00:29:32.080 They're a cultural attache. 00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:33.760 And we think that's kind of a punchline. 00:29:33.760 --> 00:29:37.440 Well, I think in part they use that because they understood correctly 00:29:37.520 --> 00:29:39.680 that culture is a weapon. 00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:43.600 When it is being used when you're taking your culture and putting 00:29:43.600 --> 00:29:45.920 it in a foreign place, that's a weapon. 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:48.640 That's what we do with with McDonald's and blue jeans. 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:52.320 That was a punchline behind the Iron Curtain that we were subverting 00:29:52.320 --> 00:29:55.680 them with rock and roll music and fast food. 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:57.600 Culture's always a weapon. 00:29:57.600 --> 00:30:02.320 And so it's not simply that these things are religious beliefs, but 00:30:02.320 --> 00:30:06.480 they also expand your mind in a way that causes you to 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:10.000 have affinity for something foreign that you've never would have cared about 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:13.440 before. You know, there are guys who are very strongly pro-Russia today 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:18.400 that never g would have cared in the slightest before they became 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:23.680 interested in Eastern Orthodox history and theology. 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:27.360 So it's just I I I believe with absolute certainty that that 00:30:27.360 --> 00:30:28.000 is the case. 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:29.520 You don't have to take my word for it. 00:30:29.520 --> 00:30:33.360 Just consider the fact that when you're seeing these things play out, 00:30:33.360 --> 00:30:35.280 it's never only one thing. 00:30:35.280 --> 00:30:38.320 There's always gonna be there's always gonna be several things in motion 00:30:38.320 --> 00:30:41.600 at the same time and we should take them all seriously because 00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:45.840 if it's having effects on real people's lives that goes beyond simply 00:30:45.840 --> 00:30:49.200 a faith life, that's a way that we should view what it 00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:50.480 is we're looking at. 00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:54.080 you should never just assume that people are coming to you honestly 00:30:54.080 --> 00:30:56.160 and telling you what they think, including us. 00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:58.480 You know, be skeptical about whatever we say. 00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:02.160 I don't want people to just swallow what anyone tells you. 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:06.240 When someone brings a message, be skeptical, weigh it against what you 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:12.160 have. And when you weigh the claims of the orthodox against reality, 00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:18.240 you find liberals in the congregations, you find foreigners, and you find 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.480 no no real connection to this people or to our values or 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.120 to our our way of thinking about things. 00:31:25.120 --> 00:31:28.160 I think that by that self, that's a reason enough to maybe 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:33.040 just look elsewhere, but it's certainly a reason to be skeptical. 00:31:33.520 --> 00:31:37.520 Before we get into the bulk of this episode, which will be 00:31:37.520 --> 00:31:42.160 the theology, although we will attempt not to belabor the points too 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:46.400 much, there is one other sort of practical or political point that 00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:51.600 needs to be made about one of the claims that is frequently 00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:56.720 to say the least seen from particularly the online Orthodox, and that 00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:57.680 is the supposed unity 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:02.800 of the EO churches, and I'm going to use probably mostly EO 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:06.960 to refer to them simply because it's short, and under that I 00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:11.600 mean all of them, I don't just mean one particular group, which 00:32:11.600 --> 00:32:14.800 is the point that I am making here. 00:32:14.800 --> 00:32:17.920 They really are not unified. 00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:23.760 You have different patriarchates, you have different metropolitans, you have different leaders 00:32:23.760 --> 00:32:29.600 of different groups within the umbrella that is called the Orthodox Church. 00:32:29.600 --> 00:32:33.680 And so you have the Russian Orthodox Church, you have the Greek 00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:36.720 Orthodox Church, you have the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and 00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:41.760 they are to some degree in communion, but they're not in full 00:32:41.760 --> 00:32:46.000 communion. And so when they tell you that there is this unified 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:50.880 body called the Orthodox Church, that's simply not true. 00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.840 You've had in the past, and even today you have some of 00:32:53.840 --> 00:32:58.720 these issues lingering, you've had one patriarchate excommunicate another. 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:02.800 You've had this leader say that that one's a heretic. 00:33:02.800 --> 00:33:07.200 You do not have the sort of full communion and unity that 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.560 they present to the world when you actually start looking at how 00:33:10.560 --> 00:33:12.720 things are playing out in reality. 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:16.880 And so that claim of unity, which is attractive to some people, 00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:21.760 because obviously one of the critiques that is often leveraged against various 00:33:21.760 --> 00:33:25.120 church bodies is look at how many there are. 00:33:25.120 --> 00:33:27.920 Clearly you you must all be wrong because there's so many of 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:32.640 you. Which is stupid, of course, because just because there are a 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.360 lot of people who are in error does not mean there is 00:33:35.360 --> 00:33:37.120 no one who is right. 00:33:37.120 --> 00:33:39.680 And it also doesn't mean that just because you have a room 00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:42.480 full of people who are mostly in error, no one in the 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:43.600 room is right. 00:33:43.600 --> 00:33:45.360 The argument just doesn't follow. 00:33:45.360 --> 00:33:50.080 But so you'll have the EO who will present the supposedly unified 00:33:50.080 --> 00:33:52.240 front, and it's just false. 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:53.440 It doesn't exist in reality. 00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:55.520 It is a lie. 00:33:55.520 --> 00:33:56.880 It is propaganda. 00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:58.240 You should not believe it. 00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:01.840 We will put a chart in the show notes showing which group 00:34:01.840 --> 00:34:05.200 is in communion with which other one and some of the historical 00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:10.080 disputes and arguments they've had excommunicating each other and whatnot. 00:34:10.080 --> 00:34:12.960 And so just don't believe that claim when it's advanced. 00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:14.400 It's just not true. 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:18.000 There's no church that is going to be able to make the 00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:24.400 argument that absolutely everyone under this big umbrella is in unity. 00:34:24.560 --> 00:34:25.600 We all agree. 00:34:25.600 --> 00:34:28.720 Rome can't make that claim because Rome has different groups that are 00:34:28.720 --> 00:34:31.280 competing within the umbrella that is Rome. 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:34.560 The EO can't make that claim because they have different groups competing 00:34:34.560 --> 00:34:37.280 within the umbrella that is the Orthodox Church. 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:39.520 And of course Protestants compete with each other. 00:34:39.520 --> 00:34:41.040 We're more open about it. 00:34:41.040 --> 00:34:43.920 We're not going to say that, for instance, we as Lutherans agree 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.920 with the Presbyterians on everything. 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:49.040 We agree on some things, we disagree on some things. 00:34:49.040 --> 00:34:51.840 That's a more honest way of going about it, and I wish 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.800 that the EO and Rome would be a little more honest about 00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:58.080 it, but just don't take that claim seriously because it isn't a 00:34:58.080 --> 00:34:58.560 real claim. 00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:00.800 It's not a thing. 00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:07.040 And so then I guess we will jump into the theology here. 00:35:07.040 --> 00:35:10.880 When it comes to the theology of the EO, you have to 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:16.480 understand there is an initial challenge, an initial hurdle to overcome if 00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:19.120 it is even possible. 00:35:19.120 --> 00:35:26.160 If, for instance, I told you to critique the Lutheran faith to 00:35:26.160 --> 00:35:29.760 say to list the items with which you disagree. 00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:32.880 You could do that, because I can hand you the book of 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:35.760 Concord and tell you this is what we believe. 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:38.480 Obviously I'm going to hand you scripture as well, but I can 00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:41.760 give you the book of Concord because that is our interpretation of 00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:46.480 Scripture. If you find something in there with which you disagree, well 00:35:46.640 --> 00:35:49.200 you disagree with Lutheranism on that point. 00:35:49.520 --> 00:35:53.760 No such thing exists for the Eastern Orthodox. 00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.560 This goes back, of course, to my point about them not being 00:35:56.560 --> 00:36:02.640 fully in communion, because different groups within the Eastern Orthodox will give 00:36:02.640 --> 00:36:04.160 you different books. 00:36:04.160 --> 00:36:08.640 Now, I know that some who REO who are listening to this 00:36:08.640 --> 00:36:12.320 podcast are probably screaming right now because you're saying Well no, we 00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:14.880 all believe in the ecumenical councils. 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:16.720 Okay which ones? 00:36:16.720 --> 00:36:21.520 Well And there begins the fundamental problem with the supposed unity with 00:36:21.520 --> 00:36:23.360 regard to councils. 00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:28.000 They'll tell you that they all believe in the ecumenical councils. 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:32.320 Then they'll tell you which ones are the ecumenical councils. 00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:36.080 The problem is there were more councils than the ones they will 00:36:36.080 --> 00:36:41.280 list. Now they'll say, well those weren't true ecumenical councils. 00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:45.200 The way that they do this, and this is a significant problem 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:50.880 both for their understanding of councils and just generally theologically, they have 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.000 developed the idea of what they call receptionism. 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:58.320 Now, for those who are familiar with theology this is not Receptionism 00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:01.840 in the sense of the Lord's Supper, but it is similar. 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.440 This is Receptionism in the sense that they say the councils are 00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.560 not binding until they are recognized by the Church. 00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:13.920 The problem with that is that historically the claim and the claim 00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:19.760 of the councils themselves was and is that the councils are binding 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:23.440 because the councils are the church in council and therefore they are 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:26.800 guided by the Holy Spirit and cannot err. 00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:29.120 Now I don't believe that. 00:37:29.120 --> 00:37:33.920 Lutherans don't hold that, so Woe doesn't believe that either. 00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:37.680 That is the historic position of the EO. 00:37:37.680 --> 00:37:40.320 It is not the position that they hold today. 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.160 So they have doctrinal development. 00:37:42.160 --> 00:37:44.960 So if they try to tell you their doctrine has not changed, 00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:46.960 well that's simply false. 00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:52.320 They develop this idea of receptionism because there are certain counsels they 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:53.200 want to reject. 00:37:53.200 --> 00:37:57.760 There are certain things said by certain councils they want to say 00:37:58.080 --> 00:37:59.600 that counsel was false. 00:37:59.600 --> 00:38:04.720 That was a a robber council, that was not ecumenical, because the 00:38:04.720 --> 00:38:06.960 church didn't receive it. 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.600 And so one of these will be some parts of the one 00:38:09.600 --> 00:38:11.680 of the Jerusalem councils. 00:38:11.680 --> 00:38:15.680 Well one of the Jerusalem councils said that the laity should not 00:38:15.680 --> 00:38:18.400 read the scriptures in the vernacular. 00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:20.960 Some of the EO will tell you that today. 00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:24.240 They'll try to excuse it, it's false, it's anti-Christian, but some of 00:38:24.240 --> 00:38:26.800 them will just say, Oh, that's not ecumenical, it's not binding. 00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:31.440 And you have this with many of the councils, because there weren't 00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:34.240 just seven ecumenical councils. 00:38:34.240 --> 00:38:36.320 So even if they give you this list of the ones to 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:40.880 which they adhere, there are other councils they are deliberately rejecting or 00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:41.520 just not mentioning 00:38:42.640 --> 00:38:45.120 because they do not agree with them. 00:38:45.120 --> 00:38:48.320 And if you're saying I believe the councils only insofar as I 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:52.080 agree with them, you aren't saying anything about the councils. 00:38:52.080 --> 00:38:55.040 You aren't saying councils are binding, you aren't saying that counsels are 00:38:55.040 --> 00:38:57.520 true, you're not saying they're guided by the Holy Spirit. 00:38:57.520 --> 00:39:03.040 You're just saying in so far as we like them, they're true. 00:39:03.040 --> 00:39:05.920 Well that's the same thing as people who try to say, for 00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:09.600 instance, in Lutheranism, we have those who will say their subscription to 00:39:09.600 --> 00:39:12.640 the confession is quotinous. 00:39:12.640 --> 00:39:17.040 Insofar as the confessions are true, I agree with them, those people 00:39:17.040 --> 00:39:20.160 aren't Lutheran because that's not a subscription. 00:39:20.160 --> 00:39:21.680 That doesn't mean anything. 00:39:21.680 --> 00:39:24.960 As I've pointed out before, in so far as the menu at 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:28.320 Wendy's is true, I can subscribe to it. 00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:31.920 It's a completely meaningless statement to say you subscribe to something insofar 00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:33.600 as it is true. 00:39:33.600 --> 00:39:38.480 Scripture we subscribe to because it is true, absolutely. 00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:41.600 We do the same thing as Lutherans with the Book of Concord. 00:39:41.600 --> 00:39:45.760 We subscribe to it because it is a faithful explication of Scripture. 00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:48.880 It is not insofar as it is true. 00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:53.280 But that's what you see the EO doing with the counsels. 00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:57.440 And so advance this claim that our confession is the counsels because 00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:03.520 the counsels are the church drawn together as one, guided by the 00:40:03.520 --> 00:40:06.080 Spirit, and speaking the truth without error. 00:40:06.080 --> 00:40:09.440 But then they immediately undermine that by not actually believing all of 00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:09.920 the counsels 00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:15.280 And so the initial challenge is just discovering what it is they 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:18.480 actually believe, what do they actually teach. 00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:23.920 For this particular podcast, we are going to focus on a few 00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.320 different theological points. 00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:31.280 Obviously, we have to go over penal substitutionary atonement because the EO 00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:33.040 reject it. 00:40:33.040 --> 00:40:36.640 And the problem with rejecting that is that it is the gospel. 00:40:36.640 --> 00:40:40.480 We We will make that point in that section, but penal substitutionary 00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:42.880 atonement is the gospel. 00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:47.280 The gospel is Christ crucified in the place of, to say, for 00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:51.120 sinners. He died in your place. 00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:54.880 He took your punishment on the cross. 00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:57.280 He was a substitute for you. 00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:00.240 He atoned for your sins. 00:41:00.240 --> 00:41:02.480 That is the Christian belief. 00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:05.040 And the EO reject it. 00:41:05.040 --> 00:41:08.880 They substitute their idea of Christ as Victor and some other things, 00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:12.400 which isn't wrong in itself, but it is wrong when you substitute 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:17.360 it and you eject, you jettison penal substitutionary atonement because you cannot 00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:22.560 jettison the gospel and then reinterpret scripture in your own light. 00:41:22.560 --> 00:41:29.040 We will also be going over obviously Palamism, because by and large, 00:41:29.040 --> 00:41:33.040 the modern EO, which it's important to draw this distinction because Palamus 00:41:33.040 --> 00:41:38.240 died in the thirteen hundreds, the modern EO are palamites. 00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:41.200 That is, in fact, an accurate thing to call them, I would 00:41:41.200 --> 00:41:43.360 say call them palomites or Eo. 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:48.560 I consider them interchangeable, because they hold to the teachings of Gregory 00:41:48.560 --> 00:41:53.120 Palamus when it comes to a number of different things. 00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:55.760 One they call hesachastic prayer. 00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:57.360 We will get into that. 00:41:57.360 --> 00:42:00.960 The other big one being the essence energies distinction. 00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:05.360 Now yes, there were other so-called fathers of the church on the 00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:09.520 Eastern side of things who taught this, but the one who really 00:42:09.520 --> 00:42:13.520 formalizes it in a way that is then adopted by the EO 00:42:13.680 --> 00:42:16.160 churches is Palamus. 00:42:16.160 --> 00:42:17.520 And so he is a big part of this. 00:42:17.520 --> 00:42:20.800 We will go over that probably at some length. 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:21.680 And then another point 00:42:23.120 --> 00:42:23.440 is 00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:30.000 really more the philosophy of it than necessarily just theology, but we 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.240 do have to go over some philosophy to understand why the theological 00:42:34.240 --> 00:42:38.560 errors, particularly of Palamism, of Palamis, why those matter? 00:42:38.560 --> 00:42:41.120 You need a little bit of philosophy to understand what he got 00:42:41.120 --> 00:42:42.400 wrong and why. 00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:47.200 And yes, philosophy and theology do interact, they're not at odds, because 00:42:47.200 --> 00:42:51.840 all truth is one and all truth then is God. 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:55.760 We'll compare to Eastern religions a little bit too, because that does 00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:56.720 play into this. 00:42:56.720 --> 00:42:59.600 That is a big part of the point. 00:42:59.600 --> 00:43:03.760 And then the last point will be not necessarily in this order 00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:07.120 as we go over them, but the last point will be monasticism, 00:43:07.120 --> 00:43:11.520 because that also is a big part of the entire system of 00:43:11.520 --> 00:43:17.840 the EO and it plays into Palamism and obviously Hesachistic prayer. 00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:22.240 So before we get into the theology proper, I am going to 00:43:22.240 --> 00:43:24.640 give you a list of instructions. 00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:27.360 And I just want you to think about this list of instructions. 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:29.920 As I'm reading it, I will comment on it after I give 00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:32.000 the list so you don't have to this is not a test. 00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:33.840 You don't have to hold it in your mind and repeat it 00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:36.880 to me later or think about Think about it until the end 00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:39.040 of the episode because there'll be, you know, a c a quiz 00:43:39.040 --> 00:43:39.520 or something. 00:43:39.520 --> 00:43:42.080 That's not how this is going. 00:43:42.080 --> 00:43:46.320 But just think of this list of instructions for doing something. 00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:49.840 First, I want you to you don't actually have to do this, 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:51.680 so please don't do this as I'm saying it. 00:43:51.680 --> 00:43:53.040 Just think about it. 00:43:53.040 --> 00:43:55.440 First you need to prepare your space. 00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:59.760 So find a quiet and comfortable place where you won't be disturbed. 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:02.080 You can sit on a chair, the floor, that's that's up to 00:44:02.080 --> 00:44:08.400 you. Then begin by by centering yourself, by drawing yourself into yourself, 00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:13.040 take some deep breath, slow breath, focus on your breathing, something that 00:44:13.040 --> 00:44:15.760 we kind of have to do on this podcast sometimes to not 00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:18.240 get too much background noise and things. 00:44:18.240 --> 00:44:21.920 So relax your body, focus on your breathing. 00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:26.720 Sort of set aside some of the external distractions. 00:44:26.720 --> 00:44:31.200 Set an intention for what it is you're going to be doing 00:44:31.200 --> 00:44:33.920 here. And again, focus your attention. 00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:36.800 Bring that attention to this point. 00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:40.240 Ignore the external stimuli as best you can. 00:44:40.240 --> 00:44:45.200 Now, external stimuli are going to arise sometimes. 00:44:45.200 --> 00:44:48.480 Simply take notice of that and dismiss it. 00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:52.080 You want to continue to remain relaxed and focused. 00:44:52.080 --> 00:44:56.160 Now, when you have your intention that you set earlier, the thing 00:44:56.160 --> 00:44:59.120 on which you are going to focus, make sure to keep that 00:44:59.120 --> 00:45:04.320 in your mind, repeat that as you are going with this process. 00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:08.320 When you conclude this process, have a have a moment of gratitude, 00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:12.880 reflect on what it is that you experienced, what you thought, and 00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:18.880 then of course try to make this a regular practice. 00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:21.360 There are going to be two groups of people 00:45:22.240 --> 00:45:26.640 listening to this podcast who are going to recognize the list through 00:45:26.640 --> 00:45:28.560 which I just went. 00:45:28.560 --> 00:45:33.440 The fundamental problem is that those two groups are completely different groups. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:39.280 First will be those who have practiced meditation or various Eastern religious 00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:45.600 practices. The second will be the EO, who practice Hesachastic prayer. 00:45:45.680 --> 00:45:50.880 Now, the difference, and I use the term from the Eastern practice 00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:55.360 instead of what the EO would call it, the difference is in 00:45:55.360 --> 00:46:00.640 that setting of an intention, because that is usually the meditation practice, 00:46:00.640 --> 00:46:04.240 the Buddhist practice, the Hindu practice, Taoist, whatever it happens to be, 00:46:04.240 --> 00:46:08.160 whichever group of demon worshippers. 00:46:08.160 --> 00:46:11.360 The EO, on the other hand, would say that they would set, 00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:14.080 or rather, begin with an invocation. 00:46:14.080 --> 00:46:17.920 This is usually the Jesus prayer Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, 00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:19.520 have mercy on me a sinner. 00:46:19.520 --> 00:46:22.240 There's nothing wrong with that prayer. 00:46:22.240 --> 00:46:27.360 The EO make it a problem because they repeat it ad nauseum. 00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:30.160 One would think it would come to mind that scripture is very 00:46:30.160 --> 00:46:33.600 clear. Do not simply pile up meaningless words when you pray. 00:46:33.600 --> 00:46:35.600 They'll of course say well it's not meaningless. 00:46:35.600 --> 00:46:37.200 The problem is when you repeat something like that 00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:42.400 a thousand times, ten thousand times, however many times they repeat it 00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:47.760 on Mount Athos, it becomes meaningless rote repetition. 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:49.360 But I don't want you to focus on that yet. 00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:51.520 We'll get to that issue more later. 00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:53.920 I want you to focus on the list. 00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:58.240 Everything except for the setting of an intention versus an invocation is 00:46:58.240 --> 00:47:03.840 the same in this supposed form of prayer called Hesychastic Prayer, which 00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:08.800 the EO practice, particularly their monks practice and particularly on Mount Athos, 00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:15.120 and Eastern practices, Eastern mysticism, Eastern religion. 00:47:15.120 --> 00:47:16.640 You are going to see a lot of this 00:47:17.600 --> 00:47:24.640 commonality between the EO, appropriately called the Eastern Orthodox, inappropriately 00:47:24.640 --> 00:47:31.760 called Orthodox, but and actual Eastern religions that call themselves a different 00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:39.360 religion. You really should not see this sort of commonality between 00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:46.080 Christianity and between pagan religions, between demon worship, because that is what 00:47:46.080 --> 00:47:48.080 these religions, these other religions are. 00:47:48.080 --> 00:47:50.560 They are demon worship. 00:47:50.560 --> 00:47:54.960 Now I want to be very clear: meditation is a practice that 00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:55.440 is appropriate 00:47:56.320 --> 00:47:57.840 in the Christian life. 00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:01.280 Meditation is something that Christians do. 00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:07.600 Here is the difference between Christian meditation and Eastern meditation. 00:48:08.080 --> 00:48:14.160 If someone tells you to clear your mind, it's Eastern meditation. 00:48:14.160 --> 00:48:18.160 If someone tells you to meditate on the scriptures, so meditate on 00:48:18.160 --> 00:48:21.760 the first commandment, the fifth commandment, all of the commandments, the Lord's 00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:23.840 Prayer, the Book of Job. 00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:28.720 If you are meditating on something that is Christian, that is the 00:48:28.720 --> 00:48:30.640 Christian practice of meditation. 00:48:30.640 --> 00:48:33.360 The Christian practice is not clear your mind. 00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:35.600 That is the Eastern practice. 00:48:35.600 --> 00:48:39.120 Now I'm not saying you can't ever clear your mind and relax. 00:48:39.120 --> 00:48:43.600 There's a difference between relaxation and this kind of meditation. 00:48:43.600 --> 00:48:45.920 If you're getting a massage, go ahead and clear your mind and 00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:46.720 relax. That's fine. 00:48:46.720 --> 00:48:48.000 You should do that. 00:48:48.880 --> 00:48:51.280 Not when it is religion. 00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:56.080 The religious practice of clear your mind is Eastern. 00:48:56.080 --> 00:48:58.000 It is not something that Christians do. 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:00.320 It is foreign to the Christian religion. 00:49:00.560 --> 00:49:03.120 When I was in grade school in the eighties, this is something 00:49:03.120 --> 00:49:06.160 that was actually being pushed in public schools. 00:49:06.160 --> 00:49:10.560 My parents ended up pulling me out of public school specifically because 00:49:11.040 --> 00:49:14.720 teachers were doing guided meditation with students. 00:49:14.720 --> 00:49:17.120 I don't know what 00:49:18.080 --> 00:49:23.520 method or uh program that came from, but it was very much 00:49:23.520 --> 00:49:28.720 something that was being pushed in our culture completely secularly, you know, 00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:30.240 so they claimed. 00:49:30.240 --> 00:49:33.760 Of course, my parents as as Christians who at the time were 00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:38.000 acutely aware of some of the spiritual warfare that was going on 00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:39.040 in this country. 00:49:39.040 --> 00:49:40.080 They're like, no. 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:42.640 I was forbidden to ever participate. 00:49:42.640 --> 00:49:45.200 I was commanded to leave the room if it ever happened again. 00:49:45.200 --> 00:49:47.360 And they they pulled me out of public school as soon as 00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:48.000 they could. 00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:50.560 Because they understood it's demonic. 00:49:50.560 --> 00:49:54.880 And I think one of the crucial things that we've talked about 00:49:54.880 --> 00:50:00.400 a bit in the past, when you participate in something that is 00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:03.920 physically evil, it may well seem harmless. 00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:07.280 You know, I I think the best example is fornication. 00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:10.160 It is it is a sin which you commit within your own 00:50:10.160 --> 00:50:14.320 body, but it doesn't feel like a sin, usually. 00:50:14.640 --> 00:50:19.760 the the good version and the bad version may seem the same. 00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:24.560 The distinction is the context of the behavior. 00:50:24.560 --> 00:50:30.480 The difference when you're talking about participating in something like Eastern meditation 00:50:30.720 --> 00:50:36.240 is that the act itself has no necessary hallmarks of doing something 00:50:36.240 --> 00:50:42.160 evil. One must necessarily know from outside of the act, from outside 00:50:42.240 --> 00:50:45.520 of what you're being taught that this is Eastern, that this is 00:50:45.520 --> 00:50:48.800 evil. If you haven't already been taught that, if you're not prepared, 00:50:49.120 --> 00:50:50.400 you just you go along with it. 00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:52.880 You may think it was a little strange, as I did as 00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:54.880 a kid, but I didn't know any better. 00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:56.320 You know, my parents had to warn me. 00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:57.760 And I thought they were overreacting. 00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:01.680 Like I'm embarrassed to be singled out once again as a kid 00:51:01.680 --> 00:51:04.240 that couldn't do stuff that other kids were doing. 00:51:04.240 --> 00:51:07.360 But it was because they were aware of the nature of the 00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:09.360 thing inherently. 00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:14.480 And And the nature of this sort of meditation is inherently one 00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:20.000 of emptying your mind, emptying your soul, and leaving a vacuum for 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:21.280 the demonic. 00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:25.840 And practitioners of Eastern meditation, that is fundamentally their goal is to 00:51:25.840 --> 00:51:30.480 invite demons into themselves and then to perceive them and communicate with 00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:34.480 them. And it it's something that's done in a variety of contexts, 00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:38.320 but the the physical act, like the fact that all those instructions 00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:45.040 that Corey gave have a repetitive complete process for achieving that particular 00:51:45.040 --> 00:51:47.200 goal, it's because it works. 00:51:47.200 --> 00:51:50.480 You do the thing and you get the result even if you 00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:53.760 don't believe it and that's crucial even if you don't believe it 00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:57.200 if you do what Corey described as he said please don't do 00:51:57.200 --> 00:52:00.800 it if you do that over and over again it will work 00:52:01.200 --> 00:52:08.160 it will actually have a spiritual and physical impact on yourself. 00:52:08.160 --> 00:52:11.200 I was not just body, because we're talking about the mind and 00:52:11.200 --> 00:52:11.920 the spirit. 00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:15.280 We're talking about all three elements of the human nature at once 00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:18.720 being acted upon by a physical and mental act. 00:52:18.720 --> 00:52:21.200 When you do the thing, you get the result. 00:52:21.200 --> 00:52:23.600 And you don't you don't have any control over it at that 00:52:23.600 --> 00:52:26.640 point. That's why it's so incredibly dangerous. 00:52:26.640 --> 00:52:28.080 Because it seems harmless. 00:52:28.080 --> 00:52:31.840 Like you're just going along and doing something very peaceful, very relaxing. 00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:33.760 There's nothing remotely threatening. 00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:35.040 You're just clearing your mind. 00:52:35.040 --> 00:52:37.840 What could be less dangerous than that? 00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:40.640 In that the exact opposite is true. 00:52:40.640 --> 00:52:40.800 This 00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:44.080 is one of those fundamental distinctions between the things of Satan and 00:52:44.080 --> 00:52:46.480 the things of God. 00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:49.360 And I want you to pay very close attention to what I'm 00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:52.720 going to say here because there is a distinction. 00:52:52.720 --> 00:52:54.560 The contours of this are very important. 00:52:54.560 --> 00:52:58.080 You need to understand exactly what the distinction is. 00:52:58.080 --> 00:53:02.000 There are natural things, and I mean that in sort of the 00:53:02.240 --> 00:53:04.720 biological sense, the natural world. 00:53:04.720 --> 00:53:10.640 There are natural things that work ex opera operato by the thing 00:53:10.640 --> 00:53:13.200 being done it is accomplished. 00:53:13.200 --> 00:53:17.200 A great example sexual intercourse. 00:53:17.200 --> 00:53:21.520 If you have sex with your wife, and you don't use contraception, 00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:26.400 and you know, neither one of you is infertile, obviously, chances are 00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:29.360 you are going to wind up with children. 00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:31.360 Children are a blessing from God. 00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:34.800 That has that happens ex opre operato. 00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:38.320 It happens by the act having been performed. 00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:41.920 When it comes to religion, here's the distinction. 00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:46.080 In the natural world many things work ex opre operato 00:53:47.040 --> 00:53:53.280 In the religious or the spiritual, the things of God occur with 00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:55.600 faith, by faith. 00:53:55.600 --> 00:53:59.520 You do not receive the blessings from God except in and by 00:53:59.520 --> 00:54:03.680 faith. That is how it works on God's side. 00:54:03.680 --> 00:54:08.400 On the demonic side, ix it is ex opre operato. 00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:11.520 You do the thing, you get the result. 00:54:11.520 --> 00:54:14.640 Faith does not play a role on the demonic side. 00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:18.400 If you you know believe in Satan and you have a true 00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:22.080 faith in Satan, if that's even a thing, perhaps that makes things 00:54:22.080 --> 00:54:26.480 worse. But on the demonic side, it is by the act being 00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:29.440 done that the result is obtained. 00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:35.440 If you invite in demons, eventually demons will show up. 00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:36.960 These are not minor matters. 00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:38.960 We're not joking in this episode. 00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:41.360 This is a particularly serious episode. 00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:43.920 All of them are serious, of course, but this one is particularly 00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:47.360 serious. This is your eternal soul that is on the line. 00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:49.600 Do not play with these things. 00:54:50.240 --> 00:54:53.680 Don't play with a Ouija board, don't play with a s whatever 00:54:53.680 --> 00:54:57.280 they do during seance stuff, don't play with any of these things. 00:54:57.280 --> 00:54:59.440 Do not invite in demons. 00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:02.160 Do not open a space for them to come in. 00:55:02.160 --> 00:55:06.160 If you do that, they'll respond. 00:55:06.160 --> 00:55:08.720 Satan is glad to answer. 00:55:08.720 --> 00:55:10.880 He's not going to give you what you want. 00:55:10.880 --> 00:55:13.360 Now, of course, he may in the short term, you may get 00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:16.400 fame and fortune, whatever it happens to be, but there's always a 00:55:17.040 --> 00:55:20.480 hook and you're going to lose your soul. 00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:23.280 Do not play with these things. 00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:23.600 I'd 00:55:23.600 --> 00:55:26.000 just like to give one brief example. 00:55:26.160 --> 00:55:30.560 If you're if you're skeptical about doing something physical and mental like 00:55:30.560 --> 00:55:33.600 that having a profound effect on you. 00:55:33.600 --> 00:55:37.040 I can give you an example of something that's completely safe that 00:55:37.040 --> 00:55:39.440 involves a breathing exercise. 00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:40.880 It doesn't involve clearing your mind. 00:55:40.880 --> 00:55:42.960 There's nothing spiritual about this. 00:55:43.120 --> 00:55:47.120 This is a specific breathing exercise that in, you know, someday down 00:55:47.120 --> 00:55:50.000 the road, you maybe you feel like you're having a panic attack. 00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:52.560 Maybe you feel like your your heart rate is through the roof. 00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:53.600 you're amped up. 00:55:53.600 --> 00:55:55.920 They're like, you know, maybe your hands are shaking. 00:55:55.920 --> 00:55:59.680 Something's happened and you feel like you're just you're you're jittery, you're 00:55:59.680 --> 00:56:02.960 you're on the verge of losing control. 00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:04.960 It's called breathing by fours. 00:56:05.120 --> 00:56:06.160 It's very simple. 00:56:06.160 --> 00:56:12.880 You take a slow four beat count to exhale hold inhale and 00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:18.160 hold not gonna do it but just one two three four you 00:56:18.160 --> 00:56:21.840 know you breathe you hold, you exhale, you hold. 00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:27.040 If you do that a few times, physiologically it will reset your 00:56:27.040 --> 00:56:28.240 body systems. 00:56:28.240 --> 00:56:32.160 Again, this isn't dangerous because it's not you're not clearing your mind. 00:56:32.160 --> 00:56:35.040 You're just saying, you know what, I'm filtering all the crap out 00:56:35.120 --> 00:56:37.040 that's got me freaking out right now. 00:56:37.040 --> 00:56:38.640 I'm just gonna do this one thing. 00:56:38.640 --> 00:56:41.360 It's something you can do like if I I learned it in 00:56:41.360 --> 00:56:44.080 the context of of competitive shooting. 00:56:44.080 --> 00:56:46.640 You can lower your heart rate, you can get your whole body 00:56:47.120 --> 00:56:49.040 to just settle down. 00:56:49.040 --> 00:56:50.640 So you don't have to be worked up. 00:56:50.640 --> 00:56:54.400 You can be okay and it will really I don't want to 00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:57.600 say recenter because we just condemn that, but like it's that there 00:56:57.600 --> 00:57:02.560 is a physical sensation to pulling it back in and feeling like 00:57:02.560 --> 00:57:06.880 you have control again like you're not you're not vibrating so it's 00:57:06.880 --> 00:57:12.000 breathing by force in for hold for out for hold for someday 00:57:12.160 --> 00:57:15.200 when you're freaking out, try that out and you will find that 00:57:15.200 --> 00:57:17.440 it will work within just a couple cycles. 00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:21.760 Because it's not guided meditation, it's not emptying your mind or your 00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:27.600 soul. It's just working on an autonomic system in your body, gaining 00:57:27.600 --> 00:57:33.040 some momentary control over it, and you're basically pressing the reset button. 00:57:33.040 --> 00:57:36.320 And you know, it's just as like our guts and our brains 00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:39.520 are connected, our breathing and our emotions are connected. 00:57:39.680 --> 00:57:42.720 All these you are you're we're all these things at once. 00:57:42.720 --> 00:57:48.000 We're an incredibly complicated, beautiful machine that God has invented. 00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:51.760 And that's why the physical can actually affect the mental and the 00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:53.040 and the spiritual. 00:57:53.040 --> 00:57:54.880 It goes in both directions. 00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:56.880 All those things are interconnected. 00:57:56.880 --> 00:58:00.160 You know, it's it's common that when someone gets old, maybe they 00:58:00.160 --> 00:58:03.600 lose their spouse, they just lose the will to live. 00:58:03.600 --> 00:58:04.720 And everything's fine. 00:58:04.720 --> 00:58:10.160 They weren't unhealthy, but frequently they the the other spouse may die 00:58:10.160 --> 00:58:12.720 within a month or two or even a day or two. 00:58:12.720 --> 00:58:16.480 And it's not even necessarily from sadness, it's just a a loss 00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:18.400 of the will to live. 00:58:18.640 --> 00:58:20.400 they had something and they didn't. 00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:22.640 They're like, okay, I'm done here. 00:58:22.640 --> 00:58:26.880 The mental and the spiritual and the physical are all deeply intertwined. 00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:29.920 And that's a blessing when you're aware of it and you obey 00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:32.880 God and you stick to taking care of your body and your 00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:37.040 mind and your soul independently and then collectively, because when one thing 00:58:37.040 --> 00:58:40.160 is not working so well, the others can help pick up the 00:58:40.160 --> 00:58:44.160 slack. When you start playing with these things that are exploiting it 00:58:44.720 --> 00:58:50.080 to allow outside influences, that's it's it's spiritually deadly as as Corey 00:58:50.080 --> 00:58:51.040 just emphasized. 00:58:51.040 --> 00:58:54.560 So think about remember breathing by fours, if you ever freak out 00:58:54.560 --> 00:58:55.760 in the future, try it out. 00:58:56.160 --> 00:58:58.160 it's not gonna make things any worse, I promise. 00:58:58.160 --> 00:58:59.600 It will actually help you. 00:58:59.600 --> 00:59:03.760 And just remember that these connections, even if you don't believe in 00:59:03.920 --> 00:59:06.240 them, like you if you've never heard that before and it sounds 00:59:06.240 --> 00:59:07.840 ridiculous, great. 00:59:07.840 --> 00:59:09.360 If you ever need it, try it. 00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:13.760 It's gonna work because it's a there's an interlocking mechanism between the 00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:17.280 state of your emotional and the state of your physical. 00:59:17.280 --> 00:59:19.680 And the true, it's also true of the state, the state of 00:59:19.680 --> 00:59:20.880 the spiritual. 00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:25.440 We are one connected Connected entity. 00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:28.000 You are you are all those things at once. 00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:32.000 And these tools that are brought in from the outside to exploit 00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:35.760 that know that if they can get that crack through the physical 00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:38.800 into the spiritual, a demon can take over everything. 00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:41.040 That's why it's so incredibly dangerous. 00:59:41.040 --> 00:59:42.560 But it's it's real. 00:59:42.560 --> 00:59:44.560 Stuff is real whether you believe it or 00:59:44.560 --> 00:59:45.200 not. 00:59:45.920 --> 00:59:49.120 Man is a gestalt, and it is important to remember that you 00:59:49.120 --> 00:59:52.640 are not just soul and not just body, you are both. 00:59:52.640 --> 00:59:55.440 And we will get into that later on in this episode actually, 00:59:55.440 --> 01:00:00.480 because there are problems in EO theology with regard particularly to 01:00:01.600 --> 01:00:06.320 the fact that man is in reality body and soul. 01:00:06.320 --> 01:00:09.120 There's a focus on the soul at the expense of the body. 01:00:09.120 --> 01:00:12.000 But before we get into that and before I get into 01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:17.520 really what Hesychastic prayer is in the practice, I want to go 01:00:17.520 --> 01:00:21.680 over a little bit of Eastern religion, just a handful of the 01:00:21.680 --> 01:00:26.320 practices and some differences and commonalities. 01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:29.440 And so I already mentioned that there that there's meditation and similar 01:00:29.440 --> 01:00:35.920 practices in various eastern religions, and primarily that's going to be Hinduism, 01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:40.320 Buddhism, and Taoism, some others as well, and these obviously have different 01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:45.760 strains within them, but that's not the point of this episode. 01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:51.200 During this meditation, and this is common across all of these groups, 01:00:51.200 --> 01:00:56.560 if you achieve, according to the practitioners, a depth to your meditation, 01:00:56.560 --> 01:01:01.680 a certain level of inner stillness, a certain level of proficiency in 01:01:01.680 --> 01:01:06.000 these practices, you will eventually see a light. 01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:08.720 That is one of their claims. 01:01:08.720 --> 01:01:12.800 It depends on the particular religious tradition as to what they will 01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:15.600 claim that this light is. 01:01:15.600 --> 01:01:20.960 In the yogic tradition, they'll claim the inner light is something achieved 01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:25.440 during their advanced meditative practices, and they will say this is related 01:01:25.440 --> 01:01:28.800 to the third eye or seeing through the third eye depending on 01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:30.800 how they were in which group. 01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:33.840 That's related to the Ajana Chakra so called, I'll go into that 01:01:33.840 --> 01:01:35.280 in a minute here. 01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:40.320 In Tibetan Buddhism, for instance, they have the practice of Jogchen, which 01:01:40.560 --> 01:01:44.160 includes the experience of seeing what they call the clear light, which 01:01:44.160 --> 01:01:48.800 is considered a direct encounter with the true nature of reality, as 01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:50.480 they call it. 01:01:50.480 --> 01:01:54.880 And you have in other traditions as well these similar practices. 01:01:54.880 --> 01:01:58.080 But to go into a little more depth on the Ajna Chakra, 01:01:58.400 --> 01:02:00.960 so called in these traditions. 01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:05.440 In Hinduism, this is linked to the god Shiva and represents wisdom 01:02:05.680 --> 01:02:10.960 and sort of a total understanding of the reality of things rising 01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:17.360 above the physical world to see the true nature of things. 01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:21.200 In Tibetan Buddhism, as I said previously is associated with the concept 01:02:21.200 --> 01:02:25.920 of the clear light, and is often seen supposedly around the time 01:02:25.920 --> 01:02:27.040 of death. 01:02:27.040 --> 01:02:32.480 You'll even have some who practice these religions who will meditate and 01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:34.800 fast until they die. 01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:38.640 There are people who have self-mummified using these practices. 01:02:38.640 --> 01:02:40.800 We'll perhaps link to some of that in the show notes so 01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:43.840 you can see the results of that. 01:02:43.840 --> 01:02:46.960 As I already mentioned what happens in yoga. 01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:49.200 I won't go into that again for this section 01:02:50.640 --> 01:02:52.800 But I want to focus again on the fact that it is 01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:55.520 linked to the third eye, which is yes, linked to the yoga 01:02:55.520 --> 01:02:58.000 as well, but they all sort of have this sort of concept 01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:02.560 of a third eye, which is a heightened state of perception. 01:03:02.560 --> 01:03:06.800 You see the ultimate reality, supposedly, instead of the physical reality, because 01:03:06.880 --> 01:03:10.560 a lot of these religions are, by and large, Gnostic. 01:03:10.560 --> 01:03:14.960 They deny the reality of the material, or at the very least, 01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:20.640 deny the possible goodness of the material, and say that the spiritual 01:03:20.640 --> 01:03:23.200 is all that really exists, or it is the only good thing 01:03:23.200 --> 01:03:24.640 that exists. 01:03:24.640 --> 01:03:30.240 Now, some of them have as their ultimate goal unification with some 01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:34.880 greater consciousness or some of them have annihilation, and I would hope 01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:38.720 that Christians can see that neither one of these is the ultimate 01:03:38.720 --> 01:03:42.320 goal of humanity, although there are some problems we'll get into with 01:03:42.320 --> 01:03:46.720 Hesachastic prayer on this note. 01:03:46.720 --> 01:03:50.000 And so obviously you have samsara and these other things where there's 01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:53.600 the escape from the cycle of suffering because you achieve nirvana, whatever 01:03:53.600 --> 01:03:56.240 it whatever it happens to be, the specifics of the religions don't 01:03:56.160 --> 01:04:01.280 matter. Just focus on this thread of commonality between them. 01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:04.160 Particularly seeing that light. 01:04:04.160 --> 01:04:07.280 Because they all mention that if you do these practices, and if 01:04:07.280 --> 01:04:09.840 you're good enough at these practices and you do them for long 01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:11.440 enough, you'll see a light. 01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:13.040 It's a divine light. 01:04:13.040 --> 01:04:16.480 It's the light of an ultimate reality. 01:04:16.480 --> 01:04:19.680 Before getting into Hesachastic prayer I would just like to briefly mention 01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:20.400 you also see 01:04:21.520 --> 01:04:27.280 these sorts of claims with particular kinds of drugs. 01:04:27.280 --> 01:04:30.400 You see many drug users who will claim to see visions of 01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:35.840 lights and colours and things like that, particularly hallucinogens, one in particular 01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:38.080 that comes to mind would be DMT. 01:04:38.080 --> 01:04:41.760 There's a little bit of that with ecstasy MDMA use, some with 01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:46.240 LSD or psilocybin, but really it's DMT is one of the big 01:04:46.240 --> 01:04:50.160 ones, and they often see not only lights, but machine elves which 01:04:50.160 --> 01:04:51.280 are demons. 01:04:51.280 --> 01:04:53.200 Do not do these drugs. 01:04:53.200 --> 01:04:56.160 Do not do these practices, do not do these drugs. 01:04:56.160 --> 01:04:59.120 These are both ways to invite demons into your life, into your 01:04:59.120 --> 01:05:06.160 soul. And now to get to Hesekastic prayer. 01:05:06.160 --> 01:05:10.640 One of the things that the Hesekasts, one of the terms for 01:05:10.640 --> 01:05:13.120 them, have been called that they object to 01:05:14.080 --> 01:05:20.400 would be amphilosychites, which is not actually derogatory, it is in fact 01:05:20.640 --> 01:05:26.240 descriptive, because it means one with his soul in his navel. 01:05:26.240 --> 01:05:30.560 And it is a description of their practice of meditation. 01:05:30.560 --> 01:05:32.720 They call it hesychastic prayer. 01:05:32.720 --> 01:05:35.360 It is a meditative practice. 01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:39.600 What they do, at least those who are new to the practice, 01:05:39.600 --> 01:05:46.000 they are advised to stare at their navel and to breathe heavily. 01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:49.440 This may sound similar to some of the other practices I just 01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:53.280 described, and that is in fact why I described those other practices, 01:05:53.280 --> 01:05:56.560 because they are in fact similar. 01:05:56.560 --> 01:06:01.360 You see the same sort of thing in these eastern religious practices 01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:03.360 and in Hesachastic prayer. 01:06:03.360 --> 01:06:06.560 You have the positioning of the body, which occurs in all of 01:06:06.560 --> 01:06:09.040 them, but obviously yoga is going to be the big one where 01:06:09.040 --> 01:06:12.960 you immediately recognize, of course, there's positioning of the body and breathing, 01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:16.640 pranayama as they call it, their breathing exercises. 01:06:16.640 --> 01:06:21.040 You see that same thing occurring with Hesychastic prayer. 01:06:21.120 --> 01:06:24.160 What is the point of Hesychastic prayer? 01:06:24.160 --> 01:06:27.120 And here is where you see the most damning 01:06:28.240 --> 01:06:33.840 corollary, the most damning connection between these Eastern religious practices and what 01:06:33.840 --> 01:06:39.760 the EO say, in effect in their writings, is required of Christians. 01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:45.200 The goal of Hesekastic prayer is to see the so-called uncreated light 01:06:45.200 --> 01:06:46.480 of God. 01:06:46.480 --> 01:06:51.280 So what they claim is that if you do these practices, which 01:06:51.280 --> 01:06:57.280 usually involve positioning of the body, breathing, if you're a novice it 01:06:57.280 --> 01:07:00.000 involves staring at your navel. 01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:03.520 If you do these practices, you will see a light. 01:07:03.520 --> 01:07:08.960 It is the exact same claim as these Eastern religions. 01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:12.560 This is not a claim from Christianity. 01:07:12.560 --> 01:07:15.200 This is not a Christian practice. 01:07:15.200 --> 01:07:20.000 This is nowhere in scripture, and I will go over their claims 01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:22.640 to supposed scriptural warrant for this belief. 01:07:22.800 --> 01:07:28.240 But nowhere in Scripture does it ever tell us to breathe heavily 01:07:28.560 --> 01:07:31.920 and stare at our navel, and you will see the uncreated light 01:07:31.920 --> 01:07:35.040 of God. 01:07:35.040 --> 01:07:39.040 This is evil, this is demonic To be entirely blunt. 01:07:39.040 --> 01:07:40.960 This is not something that Christians do. 01:07:40.960 --> 01:07:42.880 This is not something we are commanded to do. 01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:44.320 This is not a part of our religion. 01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:46.400 This is not in our sacred scriptures. 01:07:46.400 --> 01:07:50.640 This is something that has been imported from the demonic East into 01:07:51.040 --> 01:07:55.760 the EO churches, and it is something they are now pushing. 01:07:55.760 --> 01:07:59.840 And to be entirely clear, this is not even the historic practice 01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:01.200 of the EO. 01:08:01.200 --> 01:08:05.680 Yes, there were some who engaged in meditation and perhaps breathing exercises 01:08:05.680 --> 01:08:09.600 and some similar things, particularly amongst the ascetics, the desert fathers and 01:08:09.600 --> 01:08:12.880 others, so called. 01:08:12.880 --> 01:08:16.880 But the practice of Hesekastic prayer did not did not really come 01:08:16.880 --> 01:08:23.040 around, did not become a major thing in the EO churches until 01:08:23.040 --> 01:08:25.280 the thirteen hundreds. 01:08:25.280 --> 01:08:30.400 This is in particular when Palamus was writing, when he defended this. 01:08:30.400 --> 01:08:34.320 This is when it became formalized, as it were, in the EO 01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:37.840 practice. This is now part of their church. 01:08:37.840 --> 01:08:38.800 He is a saint. 01:08:38.800 --> 01:08:41.040 He is considered a theologian. 01:08:41.040 --> 01:08:43.840 They hold to what he said as true. 01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:47.840 This is not some minor or fringe opinion, this is not something 01:08:47.840 --> 01:08:50.400 that is optional for the EO to believe. 01:08:50.400 --> 01:08:52.960 This is what their churches teach. 01:08:52.960 --> 01:08:56.400 This is what they are required to believe. 01:08:56.400 --> 01:09:01.760 And it began, as I said, to be formalized, to become a 01:09:01.760 --> 01:09:08.080 thing actually accepted and practiced in their churches in the thirteen hundreds. 01:09:08.080 --> 01:09:12.160 And so do bear in mind if you're reading older authors from 01:09:12.160 --> 01:09:15.040 the Eastern churches, they may be sound. 01:09:15.040 --> 01:09:18.640 John Chrysostom is great on many topics. 01:09:18.640 --> 01:09:20.480 He is worth reading. 01:09:20.480 --> 01:09:25.920 He died long before this became a thing. 01:09:25.920 --> 01:09:29.280 But we have to deal with the EO churches as we find 01:09:29.280 --> 01:09:33.120 them. And as we find them, they are palamite. 01:09:33.120 --> 01:09:35.600 They hold to this practice. 01:09:35.600 --> 01:09:37.600 They hold to his theology. 01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:42.080 And we'll get into more of his theology in a little while 01:09:42.160 --> 01:09:48.000 because there's the essence energies distinction that becomes a major problem, and 01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:53.520 that is really formalized by Palamus in his book The Triads, which 01:09:53.520 --> 01:09:56.560 is where he also defends Hesachastic Prayer. 01:09:56.560 --> 01:10:01.920 In fact the entire point Of the book, the Triads was the 01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:05.680 defense of Hesochastic Prayer. 01:10:05.680 --> 01:10:09.280 The subtitle of the book is In Defense of Those Who Practice 01:10:09.280 --> 01:10:13.680 Sacred Quietude, Sacred Quietude being one of the ways that they translate 01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:19.040 Hesekasm, and they call the practitioners Hesekast. 01:10:19.040 --> 01:10:21.360 This is something they do even to this day. 01:10:21.360 --> 01:10:24.800 This is a major practice, particularly on Mount Athos. 01:10:24.800 --> 01:10:29.120 This is basically what their monks spend their time doing breathing heavily, 01:10:29.120 --> 01:10:32.320 and trying to see the uncreated light of God. 01:10:32.720 --> 01:10:35.600 It's one of those times where you wish you were exaggerating or 01:10:35.600 --> 01:10:36.640 joking or 01:10:37.600 --> 01:10:40.960 Making a parody of what they do, but this is just simply 01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:41.520 what they do. 01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:43.280 This is from their own writings. 01:10:43.280 --> 01:10:45.040 They will even admit this to you. 01:10:45.040 --> 01:10:50.240 If you ask them, they will try to equivocate or prevaricate about 01:10:50.240 --> 01:10:53.440 the specifics of the practice to try to say that well it's 01:10:53.440 --> 01:10:57.280 not really navel gazing it's X, Y, and Z. 01:10:57.280 --> 01:11:00.160 But this is what's said in their books. 01:11:00.160 --> 01:11:04.240 This is I could quote from the Triads and others what these 01:11:04.240 --> 01:11:09.280 practices are and how they are conducted, because this is what their 01:11:09.280 --> 01:11:13.280 theologians say about their religion. 01:11:13.280 --> 01:11:16.720 So ask yourself Is this Christian? 01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:18.640 Do you see this in Scripture? 01:11:18.640 --> 01:11:21.040 Search through Scripture and try to find it. 01:11:21.040 --> 01:11:24.320 You will not find it, because it is not there. 01:11:24.320 --> 01:11:28.640 Now, I said I would mention where they try to couch, where 01:11:28.640 --> 01:11:31.680 they try to found this practice. 01:11:31.680 --> 01:11:37.200 Their firmest foundation, as they believe it to be, their greatest claim, 01:11:37.200 --> 01:11:40.640 which is completely ridiculous, and I will go over why, but their 01:11:41.280 --> 01:11:46.080 primary claim about this uncreated light of God and the ability of 01:11:46.080 --> 01:11:50.240 Christians who do this sort of prayer so called to see it 01:11:51.920 --> 01:11:54.160 is the transfiguration. 01:11:55.280 --> 01:12:01.200 They say, they claim, that during the Transfiguration, it is the glory 01:12:01.200 --> 01:12:06.080 of God that shone on the disciples, and that glory, that light 01:12:06.080 --> 01:12:09.760 that they saw, is the uncreated light of God. 01:12:10.080 --> 01:12:12.720 This is wrong for many reasons. 01:12:12.720 --> 01:12:17.120 First off, I would point out, Christ took the three disciples to 01:12:17.120 --> 01:12:22.560 the top of a mountain to show them his glory, and they 01:12:22.560 --> 01:12:24.080 saw light. 01:12:24.240 --> 01:12:27.600 Okay, he took them to the top of a mountain, so they 01:12:27.600 --> 01:12:28.960 would be in seclusion. 01:12:28.960 --> 01:12:30.000 This was a bright light. 01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:30.720 This was a light. 01:12:30.720 --> 01:12:31.600 They actually saw light. 01:12:31.600 --> 01:12:32.640 That's what Scripture says. 01:12:32.640 --> 01:12:35.760 It doesn't say they saw the uncreated light of God, it says 01:12:35.760 --> 01:12:37.360 they saw light. 01:12:37.360 --> 01:12:40.960 And so Scripture says they saw a light. 01:12:40.960 --> 01:12:42.960 That is what Christians believe. 01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:46.560 They saw, we see with our eyes, a light. 01:12:46.560 --> 01:12:48.480 We all know what light is. 01:12:48.480 --> 01:12:51.520 This is not the uncreated light of God. 01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:54.240 And I will get into this more when we talk about essence 01:12:54.240 --> 01:12:57.920 energies, because that's where the real problem comes in, because they use 01:12:57.920 --> 01:13:02.400 this to say that the light and these other things that are 01:13:02.400 --> 01:13:07.600 seen by those who practice hesachistic prayer are energies, not the essence 01:13:07.600 --> 01:13:08.960 of God. 01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:12.800 And so that is where they try to base this belief in 01:13:12.800 --> 01:13:18.000 the ability of Christians to see the uncreated light of God. 01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:21.840 And they make this out to be the whole goal of the 01:13:21.840 --> 01:13:23.120 Christian life. 01:13:23.120 --> 01:13:26.320 And they make the same mistake that others make about the supposed 01:13:26.320 --> 01:13:29.600 holiness of monks, and they'll claim that monks are more holy than 01:13:29.600 --> 01:13:34.000 the average person because they dedicate their lives to these things. 01:13:34.000 --> 01:13:37.200 And they basically tell them to starve themselves, because if you starve 01:13:37.200 --> 01:13:40.640 yourself and then you do breathe heavily, you'll see the uncreated light. 01:13:40.640 --> 01:13:41.920 That's a better way to do it. 01:13:41.920 --> 01:13:45.440 They will in fact say that you cannot really pray unless you 01:13:45.440 --> 01:13:47.600 are also fasting. 01:13:47.600 --> 01:13:49.760 These are cultic practices. 01:13:49.760 --> 01:13:54.240 Starving yourself, breathing heavily, is going to put you in an altered 01:13:54.240 --> 01:13:55.120 mental state. 01:13:55.120 --> 01:13:57.520 Of course you're going to see something. 01:13:57.520 --> 01:14:02.480 The best case scenario is that you hallucinate from hunger or lack 01:14:02.480 --> 01:14:04.480 of auction, whatever it happens to be. 01:14:04.480 --> 01:14:08.240 The worst case scenario is you simply invite in demons. 01:14:08.240 --> 01:14:10.480 Satan appears as an angel of light. 01:14:10.480 --> 01:14:12.240 Do you want to see that light? 01:14:12.240 --> 01:14:15.120 That's the light you're going to see if you engage in these 01:14:15.120 --> 01:14:20.240 particular practices, as many in the East have learned, undoubtedly, and I 01:14:20.240 --> 01:14:23.040 don't just mean the Far East in this case. 01:14:23.280 --> 01:14:27.440 It's important to know that this is not merely aspirational for them. 01:14:27.440 --> 01:14:28.720 They succeed. 01:14:28.720 --> 01:14:33.760 Just as yogis succeed, just as Buddhist monks succeed, when they go 01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:38.960 looking to find this light when they are performing these physical actions, 01:14:38.960 --> 01:14:40.240 they find it. 01:14:40.240 --> 01:14:44.240 It's not it's not imaginary, as Corey said, like that would be 01:14:44.240 --> 01:14:45.200 the best case. 01:14:45.440 --> 01:14:49.600 The best case would be that it was strictly physiological. 01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:51.520 Unfortunately, it's not. 01:14:51.520 --> 01:14:54.000 Because if that were the case, you wouldn't find it in all 01:14:54.000 --> 01:14:55.680 of these demonic religions. 01:14:56.000 --> 01:14:59.600 Every demonic religion says do the same thing and get the same 01:14:59.600 --> 01:15:04.160 outcome. And for thousands of years, practitioners have done it because it 01:15:04.160 --> 01:15:09.200 works. They seek communion with demons, the light appears, and they commune 01:15:09.200 --> 01:15:09.760 with the light. 01:15:09.760 --> 01:15:12.000 They commune with the demons. 01:15:12.000 --> 01:15:17.600 When these EOs say do this and it works, they're not wrong. 01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:19.680 They're wrong about the nature of it. 01:15:19.680 --> 01:15:22.320 They're not wrong about achieving those results. 01:15:23.200 --> 01:15:28.240 And that's why it's this is not simply a theological disagreement. 01:15:28.240 --> 01:15:32.400 This is not simply being uncomfortable with something that's kind of a 01:15:32.400 --> 01:15:37.280 weird cultural pl practice from the wrong side of a mountain range. 01:15:37.280 --> 01:15:40.640 This is literally Eastern Demon Summoning. 01:15:40.640 --> 01:15:46.640 It's a universal practice with universal rules and universal results, regardless of 01:15:46.640 --> 01:15:48.880 what God it is that they're seeking. 01:15:48.880 --> 01:15:52.160 That is absolute proof all by itself that this is not a 01:15:52.160 --> 01:15:53.440 Christian practice. 01:15:53.440 --> 01:15:55.680 This is an antichrist practice. 01:15:55.680 --> 01:15:57.200 And it works. 01:15:57.200 --> 01:15:59.440 Again, that's that's the crucial thing. 01:15:59.440 --> 01:16:02.960 It's not just that this is a bad idea, it's it's demon 01:16:02.960 --> 01:16:04.880 summoning that works. 01:16:04.880 --> 01:16:08.960 When you hollow yourself out and you say, I'm ready, show me 01:16:08.960 --> 01:16:11.760 the light, it's gonna work. 01:16:11.760 --> 01:16:15.920 That's it it's it's horrifying, it's the last thing that any Christian 01:16:15.920 --> 01:16:17.200 would ever want. 01:16:17.200 --> 01:16:20.800 You know, these people go down this path where they're enticed by 01:16:20.800 --> 01:16:26.640 these by this esoteric occult knowledge of seeking that which is unrevealed. 01:16:27.040 --> 01:16:30.640 You know, we have we have scriptures that they're not interested in 01:16:30.640 --> 01:16:35.840 reading. And they go looking on mountains and caves for things that 01:16:35.840 --> 01:16:37.200 God did not reveal. 01:16:37.200 --> 01:16:40.720 That's not the life that we as Christians were told to lead, 01:16:40.720 --> 01:16:43.360 and it's simply not the life that Christians lead. 01:16:43.360 --> 01:16:48.000 It is, however, the life that these men advocate for their adherence, 01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:50.720 and if they do it, it's gonna work, and it's going to 01:16:50.720 --> 01:16:53.520 lead to eternal damnation. 01:16:53.600 --> 01:16:53.760 For 01:16:53.760 --> 01:16:57.280 anyone that thinks that Woe is going overboard by saying that it's 01:16:57.280 --> 01:17:00.960 a a mystery cult or implying it's a mystery cult, it is. 01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:01.840 We'll both say that. 01:17:02.080 --> 01:17:03.600 that is what this is. 01:17:03.600 --> 01:17:06.240 But he's not going overboard. 01:17:06.240 --> 01:17:10.080 And I can prove that by the dozens of quotes I could 01:17:10.080 --> 01:17:15.360 pull from the triads saying that those who are initiated, those who 01:17:15.360 --> 01:17:18.160 are taught by the fathers, and it often does use the exact 01:17:18.720 --> 01:17:20.320 word initiated. 01:17:20.320 --> 01:17:21.840 This is cultic language. 01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:27.120 This is what you expect from the Masons or a doomsday cult. 01:17:27.120 --> 01:17:28.800 This is not what you expect from Christianity. 01:17:28.800 --> 01:17:31.840 Christianity is not a mystery religion. 01:17:31.680 --> 01:17:33.520 Now, I want to be careful in this. 01:17:33.520 --> 01:17:37.200 I do not mean that Christianity does not have mysteries, because mystery 01:17:37.200 --> 01:17:40.640 is simply the Greek term for sacrament. 01:17:40.640 --> 01:17:44.480 Christianity has mysteries. 01:17:44.480 --> 01:17:50.160 How exactly we're regenerated in baptism is a mystery, it's a sacrament. 01:17:50.160 --> 01:17:54.560 How God, how Christ is present in the bread and the wine 01:17:54.640 --> 01:17:56.880 is a mystery, it's a sacrament. 01:17:56.880 --> 01:17:58.720 There are things that are mystery. 01:17:59.200 --> 01:18:03.840 There are things that are beyond human knowledge in Christianity. 01:18:03.840 --> 01:18:06.320 But Christianity is not a mystery religion. 01:18:06.320 --> 01:18:09.040 A mystery religion is a specific thing. 01:18:09.040 --> 01:18:12.720 In the Western tradition, as it were, it ties into the mystery 01:18:12.720 --> 01:18:16.320 cults, which were very popular in Greece and Rome. 01:18:16.320 --> 01:18:20.240 These are cults you would be initiated with secret knowledge, usually some 01:18:20.240 --> 01:18:21.280 sort of ritual. 01:18:21.280 --> 01:18:24.320 We see the same thing as I said with the Masons today. 01:18:24.320 --> 01:18:26.160 Those are mystery religions. 01:18:26.160 --> 01:18:27.920 Christianity is not. 01:18:27.920 --> 01:18:29.920 Christianity is open. 01:18:29.920 --> 01:18:31.600 We literally have a book. 01:18:31.600 --> 01:18:32.560 Read the book. 01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:35.440 It tells you exactly what Christians believe and how to be a 01:18:35.440 --> 01:18:37.760 Christian or not be a Christian. 01:18:37.760 --> 01:18:40.400 Christianity is not a mystery religion. 01:18:40.400 --> 01:18:43.360 You do not go to someone living in a desert cave, and 01:18:43.360 --> 01:18:45.600 he will tell you the secrets of the universe if only you 01:18:45.600 --> 01:18:48.160 look at your navel and breathe heavily. 01:18:48.160 --> 01:18:51.040 And it sounds like I'm joking, and perhaps there's some humor to 01:18:51.040 --> 01:18:53.440 be had there, but it's also deadly serious. 01:18:53.440 --> 01:18:56.800 This is a wicked evil practice. 01:18:56.800 --> 01:19:00.800 And I want to read a quote now describing how this works, 01:19:00.800 --> 01:19:03.360 and I just want you, as a Christian, or even if you're 01:19:03.280 --> 01:19:07.360 not a Christian, does this sound like a good thing to you? 01:19:07.360 --> 01:19:09.840 Does this sound like an experience you want? 01:19:09.840 --> 01:19:13.760 Or does this sound like the exact opposite of that? 01:19:14.560 --> 01:19:19.360 In fervent prayer, when the spiritual fire appears, and the spiritual candle 01:19:19.360 --> 01:19:22.800 is lit, and the mind is raised through spiritual vision to an 01:19:22.800 --> 01:19:28.080 intense flame, then paradoxically, the body too is lit and warmed, so 01:19:28.080 --> 01:19:31.200 that, to those who see it, it appears to be coming out 01:19:31.200 --> 01:19:34.240 of the fire of a visible furnace, according to the author of 01:19:34.240 --> 01:19:37.600 the spiritual ladder. 01:19:37.600 --> 01:19:42.080 I don't think I even need to comment on that particular quote. 01:19:42.080 --> 01:19:44.880 I know how I respond to it, and I think I know 01:19:44.880 --> 01:19:47.920 how any Christian is going to respond to hearing those words in 01:19:47.920 --> 01:19:50.320 that order. 01:19:50.320 --> 01:19:52.640 And to be clear, this is not something that you find in 01:19:52.640 --> 01:19:54.800 one place, that's from the triads I'm quoting. 01:19:54.800 --> 01:19:56.320 This is not something found in one place. 01:19:56.320 --> 01:19:58.000 This is found throughout the book. 01:19:58.000 --> 01:20:02.320 This is found throughout the other supposed fathers of the East. 01:20:02.320 --> 01:20:04.720 This is not a fringe practice. 01:20:04.720 --> 01:20:07.200 This is central to their religion. 01:20:07.200 --> 01:20:10.640 And I do mean their religion, because it is not a shared 01:20:10.640 --> 01:20:13.760 religion. This is not Christianity. 01:20:13.760 --> 01:20:18.080 This is something that is very much Eastern and very much not 01:20:18.240 --> 01:20:20.560 Orthodox. 01:20:20.560 --> 01:20:24.560 And the important thing about the timing of Palamus in the 1300s 01:20:24.560 --> 01:20:30.400 is that, as Corey said, this is the father of everything that's 01:20:30.400 --> 01:20:31.360 come since. 01:20:31.360 --> 01:20:35.920 You cannot be EO without following in his footsteps. 01:20:35.920 --> 01:20:42.560 And for centuries, the most prominent monks and leaders of this religion 01:20:42.880 --> 01:20:44.160 did what he said. 01:20:44.160 --> 01:20:50.080 They went to Mount Athos, they meditated, they summoned demons, and then 01:20:50.080 --> 01:20:52.320 they went and wrote theology. 01:20:52.320 --> 01:20:56.000 Can you trust anything that has come after him? 01:20:56.000 --> 01:21:01.440 Regardless of when it was introduced, when this came into being, when 01:21:01.440 --> 01:21:07.520 the 1300s, when Palamus established, from now on, this is EO Orthodoxy, 01:21:07.520 --> 01:21:12.240 redundantly. Because again, this is not this is not Christian Orthodoxy. 01:21:12.240 --> 01:21:14.880 This is as far as it could go, which is why one 01:21:14.880 --> 01:21:19.360 of the reasons Corey's shortening it to you know Orthodox is the 01:21:19.360 --> 01:21:22.240 same sort of question begging term as Catholic. 01:21:22.240 --> 01:21:25.120 Catholic means a universal or according to the whole. 01:21:24.960 --> 01:21:28.960 Orthodox means that it's right, that it's it's on the path, that 01:21:28.960 --> 01:21:30.160 it's true. 01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:33.280 Nothing could be further from the truth. 01:21:33.280 --> 01:21:36.400 This is not Christian Orthodoxy. 01:21:36.400 --> 01:21:42.480 And crucially, if these beliefs and these practices have been in use 01:21:42.720 --> 01:21:48.560 by adherents for the last 700 years, what must a Christian do? 01:21:48.560 --> 01:21:52.720 How must we view whatever theology was produced by such men. 01:21:52.720 --> 01:21:58.320 No matter how nice it sounds, for forget, forget how pleasing and 01:21:58.560 --> 01:22:01.600 you know warming you find their words. 01:22:01.600 --> 01:22:05.120 If you know that they're summoning demons and it's working and they've 01:22:05.120 --> 01:22:08.560 been doing it their entire lives, is that someone you're going to 01:22:08.560 --> 01:22:11.840 trust? You know, if if you find if you found out that 01:22:11.840 --> 01:22:16.000 a couple podcasters were having seances and summoning demons every night, would 01:22:16.000 --> 01:22:20.080 you keep listening to that podcast for theology or sports or anything? 01:22:20.080 --> 01:22:21.280 I would hope not. 01:22:21.280 --> 01:22:24.720 I would hope that if you hear that someone is involved with 01:22:24.720 --> 01:22:28.640 demons, you would flee from them, you know, pray for them, but 01:22:28.640 --> 01:22:29.680 stay away. 01:22:29.680 --> 01:22:32.800 That's not your spiritual battle to engage in. 01:22:32.800 --> 01:22:36.480 And when these men are dead and gone, but their words live 01:22:36.480 --> 01:22:41.280 on, and their words have been removed from this sort of spiritual 01:22:41.280 --> 01:22:47.840 context, it's very easy to rebrand the products of these mutual manifestations 01:22:47.840 --> 01:22:51.200 of of demonic entities and whatever teachings they were given. 01:22:51.200 --> 01:22:53.200 And like here's the thing. 01:22:53.200 --> 01:22:57.840 Demons don't just show up and call you mean names. 01:22:57.840 --> 01:23:00.800 They don't just show up and make you sad. 01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:03.840 They often show up and tell people things. 01:23:03.840 --> 01:23:05.680 They will give them information. 01:23:05.680 --> 01:23:07.600 They will give them suggestions. 01:23:08.400 --> 01:23:11.920 They're there to hurt you and they're there to hurt other people. 01:23:11.920 --> 01:23:15.840 So when someone is conducting a seance or they're doing using a 01:23:15.840 --> 01:23:21.600 Ouija board or they're summoning the uncreated light into their own minds 01:23:21.840 --> 01:23:27.680 and it works, that person is now in communion with hell. 01:23:27.680 --> 01:23:32.000 And whatever happens after that must not only be suspect. 01:23:32.320 --> 01:23:34.080 you need to be, I don't want to say terrified. 01:23:34.080 --> 01:23:37.520 You need you need to treat it as a spiritual threat to 01:23:37.520 --> 01:23:38.080 your soul. 01:23:38.240 --> 01:23:40.000 That's exactly what it is. 01:23:40.000 --> 01:23:43.040 And the fact that some of it might sound okay should be 01:23:43.040 --> 01:23:44.400 all the more terrifying. 01:23:44.400 --> 01:23:45.360 Because guess what? 01:23:45.360 --> 01:23:46.240 Satan's good at that. 01:23:46.240 --> 01:23:49.520 Like I said earlier, with that article from this person with a 01:23:49.520 --> 01:23:54.000 par terrible pedigree describing this history, if most of what she said 01:23:54.000 --> 01:23:56.480 were lies, it wouldn't do any good. 01:23:56.480 --> 01:23:59.200 If she sneaks in one or two lies, great, pick them out. 01:23:59.200 --> 01:24:02.160 But if everything that someone says is a lie, it's easy. 01:24:02.160 --> 01:24:03.760 That's not what happens. 01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:07.360 These when when a demon comes and gives you advice and gives 01:24:07.360 --> 01:24:11.200 you suggestions, it's gonna be something that's gonna be appealing. 01:24:11.200 --> 01:24:13.040 It's gonna seem like it's gonna work. 01:24:13.040 --> 01:24:14.880 That's the that's the hope. 01:24:14.880 --> 01:24:18.480 They don't just show up and give you misery. 01:24:18.960 --> 01:24:21.600 we've referenced in the past in one of the episodes we did 01:24:21.600 --> 01:24:25.920 where we talked about the not conform podcast and work that they 01:24:25.920 --> 01:24:30.960 did talking about witchcraft, there was a practitioner that they quoted at 01:24:30.960 --> 01:24:34.720 some length who talked about his demon summoning rituals and how they 01:24:34.720 --> 01:24:39.040 worked. How he was able to successfully he believed, he thought that 01:24:39.040 --> 01:24:40.400 he was controlling the demons. 01:24:40.400 --> 01:24:43.280 He thought that when he would do these rituals and these practices, 01:24:43.280 --> 01:24:46.320 and then a demon would appear and he would make the demon 01:24:46.320 --> 01:24:47.520 do his will. 01:24:47.520 --> 01:24:49.360 That's not how the spiritual works. 01:24:49.600 --> 01:24:52.480 You don't summon a demon, you invite a demon. 01:24:52.800 --> 01:24:55.440 And it doesn't take your orders. 01:24:55.440 --> 01:24:58.960 It's the one who's nudging you and pushing you towards hell. 01:24:58.960 --> 01:25:03.040 And so when these men are inviting this stuff in, whatever happens 01:25:03.040 --> 01:25:05.680 after that is necessarily straight from hell. 01:25:05.680 --> 01:25:07.680 And it's not necessarily gonna seem like it. 01:25:07.680 --> 01:25:10.480 Now, if you have the Holy Spirit, if you actually have some 01:25:10.480 --> 01:25:15.520 degree of spiritual discernment, all of this should be beyond hair raising. 01:25:15.520 --> 01:25:17.760 And w you know, part of the reason I didn't want to 01:25:17.760 --> 01:25:20.320 read any of this crap is that as Corey for the last 01:25:20.560 --> 01:25:23.440 probably two months has been reading this stuff and just giving me 01:25:23.440 --> 01:25:25.920 quotes periodically, it made my skin crawl. 01:25:25.920 --> 01:25:29.360 He would he would pick out some per something particularly horrifying and 01:25:29.360 --> 01:25:32.080 drop it because he knows that when I hear it, I'm not 01:25:32.080 --> 01:25:33.280 going to be tricked by it. 01:25:33.280 --> 01:25:34.560 I look at it immediately. 01:25:34.560 --> 01:25:37.040 It's just, this is the worst thing imaginable. 01:25:37.040 --> 01:25:39.680 Until an hour later he has another quote. 01:25:39.680 --> 01:25:42.720 Someone with spiritual discernment is going to have that response to this 01:25:42.720 --> 01:25:43.520 sort of evil. 01:25:43.520 --> 01:25:47.200 Unfortunately, as we said at the beginning, most of the guys who 01:25:47.200 --> 01:25:52.320 today are attracted to these Eastern practices, they don't know any better. 01:25:52.320 --> 01:25:56.400 And the worst thing about delving into the so-called fathers is that 01:25:56.400 --> 01:26:00.240 they all disagree and they all separate like they're making arguments, and 01:26:00.240 --> 01:26:03.120 fine. Luther makes arguments, most of them are really, really good. 01:26:03.120 --> 01:26:04.320 That's why I'm Lutheran. 01:26:04.320 --> 01:26:07.840 Not that we adhere to specifically what he said, but the guy 01:26:07.840 --> 01:26:09.280 was really good at theology. 01:26:09.280 --> 01:26:12.720 He made good arguments, but they're arguments from scripture. 01:26:12.800 --> 01:26:14.640 It wasn't any revelation. 01:26:14.640 --> 01:26:17.200 It wasn't anything special. 01:26:17.200 --> 01:26:20.960 It was just I'm applying reason and what I see in scripture. 01:26:20.960 --> 01:26:22.960 I think this plays out like that. 01:26:22.960 --> 01:26:26.240 And when you look at it, it stands the test of time. 01:26:26.240 --> 01:26:30.000 When these guys who become catechumens in EO 01:26:30.960 --> 01:26:34.880 start like I've I've I've had discussions with them online where they 01:26:35.200 --> 01:26:40.640 have these strongly held opinions about these obscure councils and obscure fights 01:26:40.640 --> 01:26:43.040 with obscure words I've never heard before. 01:26:43.040 --> 01:26:45.680 And it's the most important thing to them in theology. 01:26:45.680 --> 01:26:47.120 I'm like, what are you doing? 01:26:47.120 --> 01:26:51.760 They've never read the Bible, but they're vehemently engaged in these things. 01:26:51.760 --> 01:26:54.240 That's it's not the fruit of the Holy Spirit. 01:26:54.240 --> 01:26:56.320 That's not what God does with people. 01:26:56.320 --> 01:27:00.240 God does with them what this podcast is doing for guys. 01:27:00.240 --> 01:27:04.080 You hear an episode pretty much at random, and most people have 01:27:04.080 --> 01:27:07.040 the response of I need to read my Bible more, I need 01:27:07.040 --> 01:27:08.160 to go to church. 01:27:08.160 --> 01:27:11.520 That's not what you find from these guys, and I I desperately 01:27:11.520 --> 01:27:14.880 want to save as many as possible from going down this path 01:27:14.880 --> 01:27:19.760 of destruction because they're they're not spiritually equipped to see just how 01:27:19.760 --> 01:27:21.200 dangerous it is. 01:27:21.200 --> 01:27:24.320 And you know part of the reason that this episode is not 01:27:24.480 --> 01:27:30.320 directly addressing VEO To their faces is that they're gonna have a 01:27:30.320 --> 01:27:34.880 counterargument for everything, or they're just gonna be irrational because fundamentally what 01:27:34.880 --> 01:27:36.960 they're doing is a rejection of reason. 01:27:36.960 --> 01:27:39.520 It's one of the things that they go back on and say, 01:27:39.520 --> 01:27:42.320 well, that's the distinction between the East and the West. 01:27:42.320 --> 01:27:46.640 The East is involved in mysteries, and the West wants reason. 01:27:46.640 --> 01:27:48.800 Well, Jesus used reason. 01:27:48.800 --> 01:27:50.960 Paul used reason to argue from scripture. 01:27:50.960 --> 01:27:52.640 Reason is a gift from God. 01:27:52.640 --> 01:27:58.480 If you are being unreasonable against scripture, you're doing something wrong. 01:27:58.480 --> 01:28:03.120 And in the narrow cases where scripture itself defies reason, okay, that's 01:28:03.120 --> 01:28:04.400 because it's supernatural. 01:28:04.400 --> 01:28:06.240 That's not something for us to worry about. 01:28:06.240 --> 01:28:08.160 But most of it is not unreasonable. 01:28:08.160 --> 01:28:11.120 Most of it makes perfect sense when you believe and you have 01:28:11.120 --> 01:28:12.240 the Holy Spirit. 01:28:12.240 --> 01:28:15.200 These guys they're just not doing that. 01:28:15.200 --> 01:28:17.600 And they go down these paths and they listen to these men 01:28:17.600 --> 01:28:21.200 who were communing with demons, and then they read their stuff, and 01:28:21.200 --> 01:28:23.040 then they show up on Twitter and pick fights. 01:28:23.040 --> 01:28:24.160 I'm like, I 01:28:25.120 --> 01:28:27.200 God help you, but I don't know how to reach 01:28:27.200 --> 01:28:27.760 them. 01:28:28.320 --> 01:28:33.440 You reminded me of a quote from Palamus that I particularly remember 01:28:33.520 --> 01:28:37.040 because it was somewhat ironic on the topic of discernment. 01:28:37.040 --> 01:28:39.520 But as a preface to that quote before I read the quote, 01:28:39.520 --> 01:28:41.520 it's a short quote. 01:28:41.520 --> 01:28:45.840 If you invite in a demon and that demon particularly hates you 01:28:45.920 --> 01:28:52.720 or is particularly malicious, you may actually find that the demon incentivizes 01:28:52.720 --> 01:28:57.120 you, or causes you, depending how far things have progressed, to speak 01:28:57.120 --> 01:28:58.320 the truth. 01:28:58.320 --> 01:29:01.520 But in such a way that you are generally damning yourself with 01:29:01.520 --> 01:29:05.440 it. And so it reminded me of this quote from the Triads 01:29:05.680 --> 01:29:09.200 only a few have the gift of discernment, namely those who have 01:29:09.200 --> 01:29:12.960 the senses of the soul skilled in discerning good from evil. 01:29:13.520 --> 01:29:17.520 And this is not quite in the middle, it's maybe a fifth 01:29:17.520 --> 01:29:19.600 of the way bo through the book, give or take. 01:29:19.600 --> 01:29:22.080 This is right in the middle of some of the most wicked 01:29:22.080 --> 01:29:25.440 theology I've ever read. 01:29:25.440 --> 01:29:29.280 That is sometimes how this works, and we see that in some 01:29:29.280 --> 01:29:32.240 individuals today as well. 01:29:32.240 --> 01:29:36.560 But on the note of mixing the the bad with the good 01:29:36.560 --> 01:29:40.480 in order to hide the bad, that reminded me of a paragraph 01:29:40.480 --> 01:29:45.120 in I have a set of books from the OCA detailing their 01:29:45.120 --> 01:29:49.040 stance on things so I could see one of the Orthodox Churches 01:29:49.120 --> 01:29:50.880 what they claim. 01:29:50.880 --> 01:29:54.080 It reminded me of this paragraph that ends with listing some of 01:29:54.080 --> 01:29:57.120 the church fathers, and I'll just read this paragraph. 01:29:57.120 --> 01:30:00.320 The writings of some of those fathers who have received the universal 01:30:00.320 --> 01:30:03.920 approval and praise of the church through the ages are of particular 01:30:03.920 --> 01:30:09.360 importance, such as those of Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus of Lyon, Athanasius 01:30:09.360 --> 01:30:14.400 of Alexandria, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, John 01:30:14.400 --> 01:30:21.040 Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, Maximus the Confessor, John of 01:30:21.040 --> 01:30:26.800 Damascus, Photius of Constantinople, and Gregory Palamus. 01:30:26.800 --> 01:30:29.440 Now for those who are actually familiar with those names, you'll note 01:30:29.440 --> 01:30:32.960 that the quality essentially decreases as you go on. 01:30:32.960 --> 01:30:34.240 But you have 01:30:35.760 --> 01:30:37.920 good Christian men at the beginning of this. 01:30:37.920 --> 01:30:40.320 Well, I won't say I agree with them on absolutely everything. 01:30:40.320 --> 01:30:42.880 I won't say they're right on everything, but they are Christians and 01:30:42.880 --> 01:30:45.520 I expect to meet them one day. 01:30:45.520 --> 01:30:48.960 But it ends with Palamus. 01:30:48.960 --> 01:30:55.280 This is an official book from an Orthodox Church saying that Palamus 01:30:55.280 --> 01:31:00.400 is one of their most important theologians. 01:31:00.400 --> 01:31:02.720 So again, this stuff is not fringe. 01:31:02.720 --> 01:31:05.040 This is the core of their doctrine. 01:31:05.040 --> 01:31:07.760 This is the core of what they teach, and that is particularly 01:31:07.760 --> 01:31:11.840 true when we get to the essence energy's distinction. 01:31:11.840 --> 01:31:16.880 So keep in mind that we are not taking some fringe group. 01:31:16.880 --> 01:31:21.040 We had those who hoped that we wouldn't bring up the magic 01:31:21.040 --> 01:31:21.760 foot water. 01:31:22.160 --> 01:31:23.440 And I'm not bringing it up. 01:31:23.440 --> 01:31:27.280 I'm mentioning it to say we're not, because we're not saying that 01:31:27.280 --> 01:31:28.640 that group. 01:31:28.640 --> 01:31:31.040 They tell us it's a fringe group, a fringe group. 01:31:31.040 --> 01:31:33.200 I will go ahead and believe them on that. 01:31:33.200 --> 01:31:36.160 We're not using the beliefs of any fringe group. 01:31:36.160 --> 01:31:43.280 We are using the exact beliefs of the mainstream of the EO. 01:31:43.280 --> 01:31:45.040 This is what their churches teach. 01:31:45.040 --> 01:31:46.880 This is what their theologians teach. 01:31:46.880 --> 01:31:50.160 This is what their monks practice, this is what they are told 01:31:50.160 --> 01:31:52.560 they have to do to be Christians. 01:31:52.560 --> 01:31:54.320 It is not Christian. 01:31:54.320 --> 01:31:57.280 It is certainly Eastern. 01:31:57.280 --> 01:32:00.000 But I don't really want to pick on the East specifically, not 01:32:00.000 --> 01:32:02.960 because they don't deserve it, because insofar as they're demon worshippers they 01:32:02.960 --> 01:32:04.960 deserve worse. 01:32:04.960 --> 01:32:08.320 But I want to mention there is I really did mention it 01:32:08.320 --> 01:32:10.320 earlier, but I want to make it explicit. 01:32:10.320 --> 01:32:14.000 There are two prongs, as it were, to Satan's attack when it 01:32:14.000 --> 01:32:19.520 comes to this particular sort of practice, which is under the umbrella 01:32:19.520 --> 01:32:24.800 of the altered state of mind that then results in hallucinations or 01:32:24.800 --> 01:32:32.240 visions. One is the largely Eastern Asian practice of breathing 01:32:32.240 --> 01:32:37.280 exercises accompanied with certain positioning of the body that then results in 01:32:37.280 --> 01:32:42.080 seeing a light The other, as I mentioned, would be drug use. 01:32:42.080 --> 01:32:43.360 And that's not just modern. 01:32:43.360 --> 01:32:47.680 Yes, I listed off relatively modern drugs, MDMA and other things. 01:32:47.680 --> 01:32:49.280 Mushrooms aren't really modern. 01:32:49.280 --> 01:32:52.160 LSD is because it has to be made in a lab. 01:32:52.160 --> 01:32:56.640 But you have things like ayahuasca, you have these drugs that were 01:32:56.640 --> 01:33:00.640 used in other parts of the world to achieve these same results, 01:33:00.640 --> 01:33:04.240 and so Satan, depending on the culture he was attempting to subvert 01:33:04.240 --> 01:33:07.600 and destroy, used different methods. 01:33:07.600 --> 01:33:12.960 For the Indians and the Chinese it was meditation and heavy breathing. 01:33:12.960 --> 01:33:17.200 For the Amerindians and the South Americans and the Africans, whatever drug 01:33:17.200 --> 01:33:19.920 happened to be available. 01:33:19.840 --> 01:33:21.200 It is the same thing. 01:33:21.200 --> 01:33:25.360 You see the same sort of outcomes because it has the same 01:33:25.360 --> 01:33:28.480 animating intelligence behind it. 01:33:28.480 --> 01:33:32.640 These are not Christian practices, they are not things into which you 01:33:32.640 --> 01:33:33.520 should look. 01:33:33.920 --> 01:33:37.360 Now I say that after obviously having read about them a fair 01:33:37.360 --> 01:33:42.480 amount. This is not something that is profitable for Christians, and we're 01:33:42.480 --> 01:33:45.760 told to pursue things that are profitable, not in the capitalist sense, 01:33:45.760 --> 01:33:51.040 obviously, but in the theological sense, in the Christian life sense. 01:33:51.040 --> 01:33:54.960 There are things that are profitable to explore, to read, to learn, 01:33:54.960 --> 01:33:56.880 on which to meditate in the good sense. 01:33:56.880 --> 01:34:00.080 sense and there are things which are unprofitable. 01:34:00.080 --> 01:34:02.720 These materials are unprofitable. 01:34:02.720 --> 01:34:06.720 Listening to this episode is fine because it is a live issue. 01:34:06.720 --> 01:34:09.280 And many of you will need to know how to respond to 01:34:09.280 --> 01:34:11.920 this if it comes up in your life, because you may have 01:34:11.920 --> 01:34:15.040 a friend who tries to go EO. 01:34:15.040 --> 01:34:17.840 You may have others you know, someone in your family even who 01:34:17.840 --> 01:34:20.400 is looking at this stuff, you may have been interested in it 01:34:20.400 --> 01:34:20.960 in the past. 01:34:20.960 --> 01:34:23.440 You may very well be EO if you're still listening to this 01:34:23.440 --> 01:34:25.280 episode. Thank you for doing that. 01:34:25.280 --> 01:34:28.880 I'm glad you can at least listen to this and perhaps 01:34:29.760 --> 01:34:33.680 meditate on it in the Christian sense, which is to say search 01:34:33.680 --> 01:34:37.760 the scriptures, and see which beliefs you find, test the spirits as 01:34:37.760 --> 01:34:41.280 God commands us to do. 01:34:41.280 --> 01:34:43.920 It's important to know how to respond to these things because they 01:34:43.920 --> 01:34:47.520 are live issues, and it is paramount that Christians know how to 01:34:47.520 --> 01:34:52.800 respond to again, at risk of ad nauseum, live issues. 01:34:52.800 --> 01:34:57.280 And that plays into this because you'll have those who focus, as 01:34:57.280 --> 01:35:01.040 Wo said, on some hyper-technical point. 01:35:01.040 --> 01:35:02.320 I won't say it as an important. 01:35:02.320 --> 01:35:05.200 They're very important things that were discussed at the councils, and many 01:35:05.200 --> 01:35:10.000 of the councils did actually produce Christian documents as a result. 01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:12.640 Their canons are correct in large part. 01:35:12.640 --> 01:35:13.760 There are errors. 01:35:13.760 --> 01:35:14.560 We all know that. 01:35:14.560 --> 01:35:15.520 We all admit that. 01:35:15.520 --> 01:35:18.640 Even the EO, as I went over earlier. 01:35:18.640 --> 01:35:21.120 Those points are not unimportant. 01:35:21.120 --> 01:35:23.200 But they may not be live today. 01:35:23.200 --> 01:35:25.360 This is something we run into constantly. 01:35:25.360 --> 01:35:27.440 This is sort of an aside, but this is something we're into 01:35:27.600 --> 01:35:28.880 all the time. 01:35:28.880 --> 01:35:35.760 The confessions of most of the major Protestant denominations go over issues 01:35:36.000 --> 01:35:38.480 that aren't really live today. 01:35:38.480 --> 01:35:40.000 Yes, to some degree we still have 01:35:40.960 --> 01:35:46.880 disagreements with regard to the real presence or the sacramental union or 01:35:46.880 --> 01:35:50.960 the nature of baptism or any of these other things, the specifics 01:35:50.960 --> 01:35:56.880 of justification and sanctification, synergism versus monergism, synergism and sanctification versus synergism 01:35:56.880 --> 01:36:00.480 and justification, all these issues on which we disagree. 01:36:00.480 --> 01:36:03.840 But the big issues that are tearing the church apart, that are 01:36:03.840 --> 01:36:08.160 destroying our society around us, these issues are not addressed by and 01:36:08.160 --> 01:36:12.240 large in our confessions, and that is the case whether we are 01:36:12.240 --> 01:36:17.040 Baptist or Presbyterian or Lutheran or anything else. 01:36:17.040 --> 01:36:20.560 In part because the men of the day, when they wrote those 01:36:20.560 --> 01:36:23.920 confessions, these things were unthinkable. 01:36:23.920 --> 01:36:26.880 You would have never thought you had to deal with men who 01:36:26.880 --> 01:36:30.000 claim to be women, which perhaps they should have thought of that 01:36:30.000 --> 01:36:32.560 one because you did have Did have temple prostitution in which that 01:36:32.560 --> 01:36:34.800 was the case in ancient times. 01:36:34.800 --> 01:36:37.840 But at any rate, you have the issues that are tearing apart 01:36:37.840 --> 01:36:41.920 the church, that are tearing apart civilization, that are not addressed. 01:36:41.920 --> 01:36:44.160 Those are the issues on which we have to focus. 01:36:44.160 --> 01:36:48.160 And so we're focusing on this issue of the EO, because the 01:36:48.160 --> 01:36:52.880 EO are a live issue insofar as they are being used, and 01:36:52.880 --> 01:36:57.280 I agree with Wo, being used as a geopolitical weapon in part, 01:36:57.280 --> 01:37:01.120 and being used on the other hand by Satan, because these practices 01:37:01.120 --> 01:37:05.520 are not Christian, they are being used to subvert Christianity, to draw 01:37:05.520 --> 01:37:10.640 in men who have been isolated or alienated from society, and it 01:37:10.640 --> 01:37:16.800 is attempting to attract them psychologically primarily, with the appeal to aesthetics 01:37:17.040 --> 01:37:21.920 or supposed tradition, historicity, whatever it happens to be, to draw these 01:37:21.920 --> 01:37:25.520 men in psychologically, and then get them invested in it so they 01:37:25.520 --> 01:37:27.840 can't possibly leave. 01:37:27.840 --> 01:37:32.240 And we have seen far too many of those who have become 01:37:32.240 --> 01:37:36.240 invested in EO and have despaired and then killed themselves. 01:37:36.240 --> 01:37:38.320 This is unfortunately on an uncommon outcome. 01:37:39.360 --> 01:37:42.880 Christianity does not drive men to despair. 01:37:42.880 --> 01:37:45.360 And so that is another consideration in this. 01:37:45.360 --> 01:37:48.880 If you have a religion that is driving men to despair and 01:37:48.880 --> 01:37:51.040 suicide, it's not Christianity. 01:37:52.240 --> 01:37:54.560 Because Christ gives us hope. 01:37:54.560 --> 01:37:56.240 That is what Christianity gives us. 01:37:56.240 --> 01:38:00.160 If you have a true Christianity, it is going to provide you 01:38:00.160 --> 01:38:03.280 hope, regardless of how bad things may be, how bad they may 01:38:03.280 --> 01:38:05.280 seem, and they are not good today, most certainly. 01:38:05.280 --> 01:38:09.920 We've gone over that at length in many episodes. 01:38:09.920 --> 01:38:13.760 But regardless of how bad things get, we have the assurance of 01:38:13.760 --> 01:38:17.040 salvation, we have the assurance that Christ will be with us to 01:38:17.040 --> 01:38:18.240 the end of the age. 01:38:18.560 --> 01:38:23.760 There is joy, and I do mean joy, not necessarily happiness, but 01:38:23.760 --> 01:38:28.320 joy. There is joy, even in the face of all the trials, 01:38:28.320 --> 01:38:29.920 for a Christian. 01:38:29.920 --> 01:38:31.520 Not despair. 01:38:31.520 --> 01:38:34.160 Christianity does not cause despair. 01:38:34.160 --> 01:38:37.120 That is not the religion of God. 01:38:37.120 --> 01:38:39.360 That is not the religion of the Lord God. 01:38:39.360 --> 01:38:43.440 That is the religion of another deity entirely. 01:38:44.000 --> 01:38:48.400 The reason that the suicide thing came up is that Cory and 01:38:48.400 --> 01:38:53.040 I, you know, paid attention to Twitter and I would say probably 01:38:53.280 --> 01:38:57.440 maybe once a month, once every six weeks, you'll see a tweet 01:38:57.440 --> 01:39:01.920 from someone reposted where someone is clearly at the end of the 01:39:01.920 --> 01:39:07.760 rope. They're asking for prayers, they're begging, and they're suicidal and they're 01:39:07.760 --> 01:39:13.280 saying I I'm despairing, I'm about to kill myself, please pray for 01:39:13.280 --> 01:39:15.680 me or goodbye or whatever. 01:39:15.680 --> 01:39:17.840 And they always seem serious. 01:39:17.840 --> 01:39:22.080 And unfortunately, we have seen enough of those go by that as 01:39:22.080 --> 01:39:25.440 soon as I see one of those appear on my timeline, my 01:39:25.440 --> 01:39:29.280 first instinct, I know I don't mean this to sound heartless, but 01:39:29.280 --> 01:39:33.440 the very first reaction that I have is instinctively to check their 01:39:33.440 --> 01:39:36.160 bio to see whether or not they're Eastern Orthodox. 01:39:36.160 --> 01:39:38.080 And at least eighty percent of time they are. 01:39:38.080 --> 01:39:38.880 Probably higher. 01:39:38.880 --> 01:39:40.480 I'm not I don't have a spreadsheet. 01:39:40.480 --> 01:39:41.840 I mean I I pray for them. 01:39:41.840 --> 01:39:44.880 I pray for mercy and for them to to find God and 01:39:44.880 --> 01:39:47.520 for God to find them in that moment of despair. 01:39:47.520 --> 01:39:54.560 But it is overwhelmingly men who are psychologically damaged, who go into 01:39:54.560 --> 01:39:59.040 EO. And I have never seen someone who's gone in psychologically damaged 01:39:59.200 --> 01:40:03.120 where I've been paying any attention, come out of it better off. 01:40:03.120 --> 01:40:05.280 What I do see is the opposite. 01:40:05.280 --> 01:40:10.240 I see men who emerge from EO teaching and practice in that 01:40:10.240 --> 01:40:12.800 community killing themselves. 01:40:13.520 --> 01:40:18.880 I would beg anyone, if you do not know what Christian denomination 01:40:18.880 --> 01:40:23.760 to join, rather than joining the EO, I would say just load 01:40:23.760 --> 01:40:26.160 a map or look at a phone book and pick a church 01:40:26.160 --> 01:40:26.960 at random. 01:40:26.960 --> 01:40:30.320 It is guaranteed to be less damaging to your soul. 01:40:30.320 --> 01:40:31.920 Even if it's p pagans. 01:40:31.920 --> 01:40:34.080 Even if there's a tranny pastor up there. 01:40:34.080 --> 01:40:37.120 Frankly you would be better off if you went to a church 01:40:37.120 --> 01:40:40.960 with a training pastor for the specific reason that you would know 01:40:40.960 --> 01:40:44.480 was evil, you're not going to know it's evil when you're going 01:40:44.480 --> 01:40:46.640 into an EO congregation. 01:40:46.640 --> 01:40:50.240 And again, there are Christians in EO, just as they're Christians in 01:40:50.640 --> 01:40:56.080 every denomination that's lost its way that has bad teachings and bad 01:40:56.080 --> 01:41:03.120 practices. The problem is that the thing itself, the body itself, is 01:41:03.120 --> 01:41:06.880 producing nothing but death and despair, as it must. 01:41:06.880 --> 01:41:10.960 These teachings that have gone on for probably a thousand years, provably 01:41:10.960 --> 01:41:16.480 seven hundred years, have been in unavoidably evil. 01:41:16.480 --> 01:41:19.200 And I don't want that for guys. 01:41:19.200 --> 01:41:22.240 I mean, this is this is you know this is a discussion 01:41:22.240 --> 01:41:24.560 about theology and another denomination. 01:41:24.560 --> 01:41:26.720 I don't want guys killing themselves. 01:41:26.720 --> 01:41:29.360 I don't want young men despairing. 01:41:29.360 --> 01:41:34.160 Period. I don't want anything that would cause that to come about 01:41:34.320 --> 01:41:35.200 for them. 01:41:35.200 --> 01:41:40.080 If we were doing episodes that were causing that sort of response, 01:41:40.080 --> 01:41:41.680 we would stop. 01:41:41.680 --> 01:41:45.040 I don't think we would be capable of doing that because we're 01:41:45.040 --> 01:41:47.520 producing the opposite sort of fruits. 01:41:47.520 --> 01:41:51.280 The fact that men who are exposed to EO end up there 01:41:51.280 --> 01:41:56.400 frequently, this is not rare, is is proof of the disease tree 01:41:56.880 --> 01:41:59.200 that they're eating from. 01:41:59.200 --> 01:42:01.440 And, you know, this is something that came up in another DM 01:42:01.440 --> 01:42:02.640 group just a couple days ago. 01:42:02.640 --> 01:42:05.360 Someone said that he had been in a DM group with a 01:42:05.360 --> 01:42:10.000 bunch of EOs and it was a consistent pattern that a new 01:42:10.000 --> 01:42:12.480 guy would come in and say, Hey, I'm trying to find a 01:42:12.480 --> 01:42:14.640 local church, I want to attend the liturgy. 01:42:14.640 --> 01:42:19.200 And the response would generally be: this is a fairly common response: 01:42:19.360 --> 01:42:21.200 here's a YouTube video. 01:42:21.520 --> 01:42:23.440 Most of them don't attend church. 01:42:23.440 --> 01:42:24.480 They don't read scripture. 01:42:24.480 --> 01:42:26.080 They don't attend the liturgy. 01:42:26.320 --> 01:42:30.640 It's an almost exclusively online online practice for a lot of these 01:42:30.640 --> 01:42:32.160 guys. Again, that's not church. 01:42:32.160 --> 01:42:33.520 Stone Choir is not church. 01:42:33.520 --> 01:42:36.400 This is not this is not the preaching of the word for 01:42:36.400 --> 01:42:40.880 edification. We try to talk about subjects, they're edifying, and the fruits 01:42:40.880 --> 01:42:43.520 of our discussions are clearly beneficial. 01:42:43.520 --> 01:42:44.960 But this is not church. 01:42:44.960 --> 01:42:46.720 YouTube is not church. 01:42:46.720 --> 01:42:50.880 Even a YouTube video of a church service is not church. 01:42:50.880 --> 01:42:52.560 It can be beneficial. 01:42:52.560 --> 01:42:56.160 If it's absolutely the best, the only option you have, it's better 01:42:56.160 --> 01:42:56.880 than nothing. 01:42:56.880 --> 01:42:58.320 But you have not attended church. 01:42:58.320 --> 01:42:59.520 You're by yourself. 01:42:59.520 --> 01:43:05.920 You're viewing something voyeuristically, it's not the same. 01:43:06.080 --> 01:43:09.840 So much of what we see in particular from the EO seems 01:43:09.840 --> 01:43:11.680 to be entirely online. 01:43:11.680 --> 01:43:14.800 And that by itself should be another warning sign. 01:43:14.800 --> 01:43:19.120 Yeah, we've linked and I've mentioned several times the 10-minute Bible hour 01:43:19.120 --> 01:43:23.520 pod uh YouTube channel where he did a three-part video with uh 01:43:23.520 --> 01:43:25.120 Lutheran pastor. 01:43:25.120 --> 01:43:27.760 And I was very grateful for that and I point people to 01:43:27.760 --> 01:43:31.360 it as often as possible because it's a great primer for why 01:43:31.360 --> 01:43:33.440 do Lutherans believe the stuff we do? 01:43:33.440 --> 01:43:34.880 Why is the liturgy the way it is? 01:43:34.880 --> 01:43:37.920 When you know they're standing up and sitting down and chanting and 01:43:37.920 --> 01:43:41.280 responding. Why do we do those things that seem weird to so 01:43:41.280 --> 01:43:42.240 many Protestants? 01:43:42.240 --> 01:43:45.600 And so it does a really good job explaining why it's like 01:43:45.600 --> 01:43:50.400 that. Prior to that, the same host, Matt Whitman, had visited an 01:43:50.400 --> 01:43:52.000 Eastern Orthodox congregation 01:43:52.960 --> 01:43:57.680 And Matt is he's not an old guy, but he's bald, he's 01:43:57.680 --> 01:43:58.240 lost his hair. 01:43:58.240 --> 01:44:01.680 And so because he's on camera and there's you know bright lights, 01:44:01.680 --> 01:44:05.280 so it's well lit, he usually wears a baseball cap. 01:44:05.280 --> 01:44:08.880 Not because he's embarrassed about not having his hair, but because you 01:44:08.880 --> 01:44:11.920 get glare and it's blinding and it screws up the shot. 01:44:11.920 --> 01:44:15.840 And so he asked the permission of the EO priest that he 01:44:15.840 --> 01:44:17.600 visited if he could wear his hat 01:44:18.560 --> 01:44:20.320 inside the church. 01:44:20.320 --> 01:44:21.440 He probably shouldn't have done. 01:44:21.440 --> 01:44:23.040 It was probably not a great idea. 01:44:23.040 --> 01:44:24.320 But he was given permission. 01:44:24.320 --> 01:44:25.760 He knew that it was questionable. 01:44:25.760 --> 01:44:29.040 He specifically asked for the reason that he didn't want to screw 01:44:29.040 --> 01:44:31.040 up the Shaw with his shiny bald head. 01:44:31.040 --> 01:44:32.960 The pastor said, Yeah, it's fine, don't worry about it. 01:44:32.960 --> 01:44:37.680 It's not the church service, it's not disrespectful. 01:44:37.680 --> 01:44:42.000 For the next year, Matt Whitman on almost all the other videos 01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:46.320 that he did with other people talked about how unbelievably hateful the 01:44:46.320 --> 01:44:48.720 EO commenters were on that video. 01:44:48.720 --> 01:44:51.840 He said that he had so much hate mail and vitriol poured 01:44:51.840 --> 01:44:54.640 out that he had worn that hat and he was doing this 01:44:54.640 --> 01:44:56.800 and that wrong and said this and that wrong. 01:44:56.800 --> 01:45:00.640 They were so vicious that this Matt is an incredibly nice, very 01:45:00.640 --> 01:45:01.680 gentle guy. 01:45:01.680 --> 01:45:03.440 He's very gracious. 01:45:03.440 --> 01:45:07.120 Even when he doesn't understand, he's he's there's there's not a 01:45:08.080 --> 01:45:10.160 an abrasive bone in his body. 01:45:10.160 --> 01:45:14.160 And yet he was so shocked by the abuse from just random 01:45:14.160 --> 01:45:18.480 rank and file EO online commenters that it traumatized him. 01:45:18.480 --> 01:45:20.800 He was clearly profoundly offended. 01:45:20.800 --> 01:45:26.160 And he he on multiple occasions has said, I don't necessarily stand 01:45:26.160 --> 01:45:30.720 in a position to judge another congregation's theology, but I can absolutely 01:45:30.720 --> 01:45:31.680 judge the fruits. 01:45:31.680 --> 01:45:35.280 I'm paraphrasing, but he said, I can tell from the EO behavior 01:45:35.360 --> 01:45:37.760 online that that's not a good church. 01:45:37.760 --> 01:45:40.000 He didn't say that, but he made it very clear that that 01:45:40.000 --> 01:45:42.320 was his conclusion because of their behavior. 01:45:42.320 --> 01:45:44.400 And I see the same thing. 01:45:44.400 --> 01:45:46.560 There are absolutely Christians that are in EO. 01:45:46.560 --> 01:45:47.520 I have a few friends online. 01:45:47.520 --> 01:45:48.880 I I respect them. 01:45:48.880 --> 01:45:49.680 I like them. 01:45:49.680 --> 01:45:51.600 I hope we can keep them. 01:45:51.600 --> 01:45:51.920 But 01:45:52.880 --> 01:45:57.360 the vast majority of EO adherents, EO catechumens, yeah, it's not a 01:45:57.360 --> 01:46:01.440 thing. Like they they they become catechumens, like it's a special status. 01:46:01.440 --> 01:46:06.480 And then for years they're given reading material and videos and they're 01:46:06.480 --> 01:46:07.440 not really participating. 01:46:07.440 --> 01:46:11.680 They're supposed to like study and meditate and at what point do 01:46:11.680 --> 01:46:12.720 they actually join the church? 01:46:12.720 --> 01:46:14.320 And frankly, a lot of them don't. 01:46:14.320 --> 01:46:16.160 You know, they'll stay in that status for years. 01:46:16.400 --> 01:46:19.120 It's just as a Christian, it's bizarre. 01:46:19.120 --> 01:46:21.760 But then once you understand what it is that's going on, it's 01:46:21.680 --> 01:46:24.720 like, well, that's both inevitable and it it's pernicious. 01:46:25.120 --> 01:46:27.760 it's bad for these people. 01:46:27.760 --> 01:46:32.880 That sort of environment has created some truly toxic people. 01:46:32.880 --> 01:46:36.320 The EO people on Twitter are some of the very worst people 01:46:36.320 --> 01:46:37.760 I've ever ever enacted. 01:46:37.840 --> 01:46:38.480 Not all of them. 01:46:38.480 --> 01:46:41.360 I'm saying I'm not at all saying that every EO guy is 01:46:41.360 --> 01:46:45.920 terrible. I'm saying that when there is a a seething brigade of 01:46:45.920 --> 01:46:51.200 horrible, amateur, vicious people, it's usually with the Orthodox Cross in their 01:46:51.200 --> 01:46:54.000 bio. I just block as fast as I can because I know 01:46:54.000 --> 01:46:56.400 that there's no getting through to them. 01:46:56.560 --> 01:47:00.960 That's not a theological critique, but it is tasting the fruit and 01:47:00.960 --> 01:47:03.920 saying I this tree needs to be chopped down. 01:47:03.920 --> 01:47:07.360 So when we talk about suicide and bad behavior and all this 01:47:07.360 --> 01:47:12.000 stuff, these are the fruits of the palamite tree. 01:47:12.000 --> 01:47:16.880 These are the fruits of hesychasm, of summoning demons for centuries and 01:47:16.880 --> 01:47:19.840 then writing down the things that they told them, and then passing 01:47:19.840 --> 01:47:20.480 that on. 01:47:20.480 --> 01:47:23.360 What we see is some of the very worst behavior on the 01:47:23.360 --> 01:47:26.880 internet, some of the least Christian people I have ever seen who 01:47:26.880 --> 01:47:28.240 claim to be Christian. 01:47:28.240 --> 01:47:30.480 I there's nothing Christian about them. 01:47:30.480 --> 01:47:35.040 It's all just fighting and hatred and immaturity. 01:47:35.040 --> 01:47:36.400 Like they're not bright. 01:47:36.400 --> 01:47:40.080 They're not, there's it's just it's a train wreck. 01:47:40.080 --> 01:47:44.400 I I would not wish this for anyone or on anyone. 01:47:44.400 --> 01:47:47.840 So part of the reason we put this off is like Corey 01:47:47.920 --> 01:47:51.600 and I have disagreements with Roman Catholics and you know when I 01:47:51.600 --> 01:47:55.600 was raised as a Lutheran, we talked about comparative religions and yeah, 01:47:55.600 --> 01:47:58.000 I went to Lutheran schools. 01:47:58.000 --> 01:48:02.480 They basically taught me that EO and RC were just kind of 01:48:02.480 --> 01:48:04.480 variations on the same theme. 01:48:04.480 --> 01:48:08.160 After looking at that stuff, not even remotely true. 01:48:08.160 --> 01:48:12.480 I have profound disagreements with Roman Catholic doctrine and disagreements with their 01:48:12.480 --> 01:48:18.240 view of history, I would in a heartbeat be Roman Catholic before 01:48:18.240 --> 01:48:21.600 I would even consider going anywhere near the EO. 01:48:21.600 --> 01:48:26.240 Because for all RC's faults, it's not fundamentally demonic. 01:48:26.480 --> 01:48:29.200 Their errors are bad. 01:48:29.200 --> 01:48:32.400 This stuff is an entirely different ballgame. 01:48:32.400 --> 01:48:35.120 I know that that's a it's a blanket statement. 01:48:35.120 --> 01:48:36.960 It's the sort of thing that makes people, some of them hate 01:48:36.960 --> 01:48:38.480 us, some like us. 01:48:38.480 --> 01:48:41.840 Not trying to be strident, of all the things you could possibly 01:48:41.840 --> 01:48:43.520 be, please don't be EO. 01:48:43.520 --> 01:48:46.640 You are it's the fast track to hell. 01:48:46.640 --> 01:48:49.120 And you can see that if you actually look at the people 01:48:49.120 --> 01:48:52.800 and track them and follow their trajectories online, you will never see 01:48:52.800 --> 01:48:54.400 any good outcomes ever. 01:48:54.400 --> 01:48:58.000 Not once have I ever seen anyone who was drawn into it 01:48:58.960 --> 01:49:02.080 exit better or become better as a result. 01:49:02.080 --> 01:49:03.920 That's all anyone should need to 01:49:03.920 --> 01:49:05.120 know. I 01:49:05.120 --> 01:49:08.640 think unavoidably this episode is going to run a little long, so 01:49:08.640 --> 01:49:10.800 we will just accept that. 01:49:10.800 --> 01:49:13.440 As listeners, you can of course pause it whenever and come back 01:49:13.440 --> 01:49:16.480 to it, so it hardly matters how long it is. 01:49:16.480 --> 01:49:20.080 But we have a few more topics that we have to cover, 01:49:20.080 --> 01:49:23.040 and one of them is really the core of this matter, as 01:49:23.040 --> 01:49:24.320 I've said a number of times already. 01:49:24.320 --> 01:49:26.080 That's the essence energies distinction. 01:49:26.080 --> 01:49:28.560 I'm not going to start with that one, but I will get 01:49:28.560 --> 01:49:29.360 to that one. 01:49:29.360 --> 01:49:32.800 I think we will really close on that and then some concluding 01:49:32.800 --> 01:49:37.600 comments. But just as an aside, before I get into a little 01:49:37.600 --> 01:49:42.160 bit of philosophy that's necessary as a a preamble, as it were, 01:49:42.160 --> 01:49:47.520 a prelude to the discussion of penal substitutionary atonement and then the 01:49:47.520 --> 01:49:50.800 essence energies distinction. 01:49:50.800 --> 01:49:57.040 When it comes to monasticism, obviously as Lutherans, we disagree with it. 01:49:57.040 --> 01:49:59.360 Our confession rejects it. 01:49:59.360 --> 01:50:02.160 We reject monasticism as a thing. 01:50:02.160 --> 01:50:05.200 And we have many reasons for that. 01:50:05.200 --> 01:50:08.240 The Eastern practice of monasticism is particularly 01:50:09.200 --> 01:50:16.400 pernicious because it it is everything that we said in our confessions 01:50:16.400 --> 01:50:20.560 and elsewhere about the medieval practice and more. 01:50:20.560 --> 01:50:23.520 Because obviously it has all of the demonic stuff on top of 01:50:23.520 --> 01:50:26.000 it. But you have monks 01:50:26.960 --> 01:50:32.240 who claim to be humble, to claim to be living these lives 01:50:32.240 --> 01:50:37.120 of holiness and closeness to God and all these various things. 01:50:37.120 --> 01:50:39.760 These are some of the most prideful people on the face of 01:50:39.760 --> 01:50:40.960 the planet. 01:50:40.960 --> 01:50:45.760 They believe that because of their works, they are the closest people 01:50:45.760 --> 01:50:47.840 to God, period. 01:50:48.480 --> 01:50:51.360 And this is one of the reasons that you see this despair 01:50:51.360 --> 01:50:55.200 amongst those who go EO. 01:50:55.200 --> 01:51:02.080 There is no real division in the EO theology between justification and 01:51:02.080 --> 01:51:05.680 sanctification, they don't even really deal in those categories because again they 01:51:05.680 --> 01:51:09.040 reject PSA, we'll be getting to that. 01:51:09.040 --> 01:51:14.080 They have this synergistic view of faith and works. 01:51:14.080 --> 01:51:17.280 It is you work and you get faith and you work some 01:51:17.280 --> 01:51:19.440 more because you have more faith and you get faith and you 01:51:19.440 --> 01:51:21.520 do works. 01:51:21.520 --> 01:51:26.400 And it's this cycle, this vicious cycle of works that just causes 01:51:26.880 --> 01:51:29.440 despair. I'm not saying you shouldn't have works because of course you 01:51:29.440 --> 01:51:33.040 will have works, but you will have works as an outgrowth of 01:51:33.040 --> 01:51:35.520 your living faith. 01:51:35.520 --> 01:51:39.520 God gives you the faith, and then God has already prepared the 01:51:39.520 --> 01:51:42.080 works that you should walk in and that's just scripture. 01:51:42.080 --> 01:51:44.160 It is all from God, it is all a gift. 01:51:44.160 --> 01:51:47.040 All of it is good news for the Christian, and that's just 01:51:47.040 --> 01:51:48.960 not what the EO teach. 01:51:48.960 --> 01:51:52.080 And the issue of faith brought to mind another line 01:51:52.960 --> 01:51:57.040 from one of the other books in this series from the OCA, 01:51:57.040 --> 01:51:59.200 and here's how they define faith 01:52:00.080 --> 01:52:03.680 or rather describe faith really, but it is also a definition. 01:52:03.680 --> 01:52:07.600 Faith is the natural possession of all men who are wise and 01:52:07.600 --> 01:52:12.640 virtuous. The best thing I can say about that 01:52:13.760 --> 01:52:16.720 is that it's not Christian. 01:52:16.720 --> 01:52:18.960 That's not a very good thing to say about something, but it's 01:52:18.960 --> 01:52:19.840 certainly not Christian. 01:52:19.840 --> 01:52:20.560 It's worse than that. 01:52:20.560 --> 01:52:22.080 It's demonic. 01:52:23.280 --> 01:52:27.120 Faith is not the natural possession of all men who are wise 01:52:27.120 --> 01:52:28.080 and virtuous. 01:52:28.080 --> 01:52:31.280 And of course, this feeds into this is really another aside, but 01:52:31.280 --> 01:52:34.960 the EO also say that in this life you can become so 01:52:34.960 --> 01:52:38.480 perfect that you no longer sin. 01:52:38.480 --> 01:52:40.640 Which goes directly against scripture. 01:52:40.640 --> 01:52:43.200 You cannot become so perfect in this life that you no longer 01:52:43.200 --> 01:52:45.520 sin. So long as you are in this life, you will continue 01:52:45.520 --> 01:52:46.080 to sin. 01:52:46.080 --> 01:52:50.000 Of course that's an outgrowth of their misconception of original sin. 01:52:50.000 --> 01:52:52.240 They effectively deny original sin. 01:52:52.240 --> 01:52:55.360 They say there's ancestral sin, but it's not imputed guilt, and so 01:52:55.360 --> 01:52:58.800 you're not really guilty, and so you don't really need a savior, 01:52:58.800 --> 01:53:02.560 you just need an example, you can follow after him. 01:53:02.560 --> 01:53:05.840 It gets complicated, their view, but it's not Christian. 01:53:05.840 --> 01:53:08.240 This is not how Christians speak about these things. 01:53:08.240 --> 01:53:10.480 The Christian view is very simple. 01:53:12.560 --> 01:53:16.720 In the death of Christ, all things were redeemed. 01:53:16.720 --> 01:53:18.240 He atoned for everything. 01:53:18.240 --> 01:53:20.480 And yes, of course, that is, I'm using shorthand. 01:53:20.480 --> 01:53:22.960 It is his life and his death. 01:53:22.960 --> 01:53:27.280 That is the totality of his offering, of his atonement, of his 01:53:27.360 --> 01:53:30.560 sacrifice. He atoned for all things. 01:53:30.560 --> 01:53:34.080 And so in that there is the objective justification, which is the 01:53:34.080 --> 01:53:36.160 justification of all things. 01:53:36.160 --> 01:53:42.160 Individuals are subjectively justified by faith. 01:53:42.160 --> 01:53:47.200 You are given that faith by means, typically baptism, but also the 01:53:47.200 --> 01:53:52.080 word. You are strengthened that faith again by means, the word and 01:53:52.080 --> 01:53:53.280 the sacrament. 01:53:53.280 --> 01:53:55.280 That is how Christianity works. 01:53:55.280 --> 01:54:00.240 Once you are justified, then begins the process of sanctification. 01:54:00.240 --> 01:54:02.880 Sanctification is synergistic. 01:54:02.880 --> 01:54:04.720 Justification is monergistic. 01:54:04.720 --> 01:54:06.240 That's why it's good news. 01:54:06.240 --> 01:54:07.520 The work is done. 01:54:07.520 --> 01:54:09.440 All of the work is of God. 01:54:09.440 --> 01:54:10.400 It relies on God. 01:54:10.400 --> 01:54:11.760 It does not rely on you. 01:54:11.760 --> 01:54:14.080 And so there's no reason to despair. 01:54:14.080 --> 01:54:18.000 You are absolutely secure because God did the work, not you. 01:54:18.000 --> 01:54:19.920 Your works don't save you. 01:54:19.920 --> 01:54:24.160 Your works are a response to that goodness from God, to God's 01:54:24.160 --> 01:54:26.240 justifying, to his gifts. 01:54:26.240 --> 01:54:27.520 Works are a response. 01:54:27.520 --> 01:54:29.760 Works do not contribute to your salvation. 01:54:29.760 --> 01:54:32.080 And so Christianity is good news. 01:54:32.080 --> 01:54:35.840 The EO system is terrible news, because the EO system is you 01:54:35.840 --> 01:54:39.040 have to do works or you're damned. 01:54:39.040 --> 01:54:40.240 That's awful news. 01:54:40.240 --> 01:54:42.720 If it relies on Relies on me, I'm screwed. 01:54:42.720 --> 01:54:45.120 That's the whole point of Christianity. 01:54:45.120 --> 01:54:47.040 Yes, there's obviously more to it. 01:54:47.040 --> 01:54:50.720 The infinite debt of sin requires an infinite sacrifice for to atone 01:54:50.720 --> 01:54:52.320 for it. 01:54:52.320 --> 01:54:55.600 But it's terrible news if it relies on man. 01:54:55.520 --> 01:54:58.720 As Luther said, Everything I have ever held I have lost from 01:54:58.720 --> 01:55:00.000 my hands. 01:55:00.000 --> 01:55:03.200 But everything I have given to Christ is still there, to paraphrase 01:55:03.440 --> 01:55:04.560 his statement. 01:55:04.560 --> 01:55:08.000 That is the exact right sentiment, if it is in Christ's hands, 01:55:08.000 --> 01:55:10.800 it is absolutely secure because he has never lost anything from his 01:55:11.040 --> 01:55:15.760 hands. Everything we hold we will eventually lose because of course we 01:55:15.760 --> 01:55:17.920 take nothing with us in death. 01:55:17.920 --> 01:55:20.880 And so if it relies on us, that is terrible news, and 01:55:20.880 --> 01:55:25.760 that is why the EO system causes despair, one of many reasons. 01:55:25.760 --> 01:55:27.920 But I said I would get to a little bit of philosophy 01:55:27.920 --> 01:55:31.200 before we talk about penal substitutionary atonement. 01:55:31.200 --> 01:55:36.000 There are two terms that you need to understand to some degree, 01:55:36.000 --> 01:55:40.560 not fully, because these are very deep terms, particularly philosophically, which there's 01:55:40.480 --> 01:55:44.160 some irony there, because the EO love to condemn Greek philosophy and 01:55:44.160 --> 01:55:47.520 then they use Greek philosophical terms but at any rate the two 01:55:47.520 --> 01:55:50.160 terms are catharsis and apathea. 01:55:50.160 --> 01:55:54.160 Apathea is usually translated, you may have sensed what the term is, 01:55:54.160 --> 01:55:58.800 it's usually translated as dispassion, but obviously it's related to apathy. 01:55:59.200 --> 01:56:06.320 Catharsis in Greek philosophy is purification or cleansing, particularly related to the 01:56:06.320 --> 01:56:10.480 emotions. It's a bringing of the emotions under control. 01:56:10.480 --> 01:56:14.240 This was particularly important to, of course, the Stoics. 01:56:14.240 --> 01:56:18.480 But this is also a thing in the EO conception of quite 01:56:18.480 --> 01:56:22.480 frankly, to call it Christianity is almost misleading, but in their conception 01:56:22.480 --> 01:56:23.680 of theology 01:56:25.440 --> 01:56:29.200 For them it is a purification of the heart and the soul 01:56:29.200 --> 01:56:35.440 from the passions, which they consider to be impurities or disturbances, things 01:56:35.440 --> 01:56:39.520 that hinder your relationship, your focus on God. 01:56:39.520 --> 01:56:46.480 And they believe this purification process is repentance, ascetic practices, particularly fasting, 01:56:46.480 --> 01:56:51.520 the giving of alms to some degree, and obviously Hesachastic prayer and 01:56:51.520 --> 01:56:54.800 they also often lump the sacraments in there as well. 01:56:54.800 --> 01:56:59.520 The reception of the sacraments is included in this purification of the 01:56:59.520 --> 01:57:03.520 passions. Now I would define for you what they mean by the 01:57:03.520 --> 01:57:08.400 passions, but I cannot do that because they define the passions differently 01:57:08.640 --> 01:57:12.400 in different authors and in different books from different Orthodox churches. 01:57:12.400 --> 01:57:14.480 And so there's no one definition here. 01:57:14.480 --> 01:57:15.520 Some of them say it is 01:57:16.400 --> 01:57:20.640 particularly just the evil passions, they will call them literally that. 01:57:20.640 --> 01:57:23.360 Some of them will simply say it is the passions, some of 01:57:23.360 --> 01:57:26.640 them seem to include all of the passionate parts of the soul, 01:57:26.640 --> 01:57:29.680 some of them include only some parts of the soul, and so 01:57:29.680 --> 01:57:31.760 I cannot give you an exact definition of what they mean by 01:57:31.760 --> 01:57:32.320 the passions. 01:57:32.320 --> 01:57:36.320 They just say you have to purify yourself from your passions, which 01:57:36.400 --> 01:57:40.080 of course is going to cause a great deal of mental and 01:57:40.080 --> 01:57:42.080 psychological anguish. 01:57:42.080 --> 01:57:45.600 If you have to clean yourself, cleanse yourself, purify yourself from the 01:57:45.600 --> 01:57:50.080 passions, one, it's relying on you to do it, and two, what 01:57:50.080 --> 01:57:51.440 on earth does that mean? 01:57:51.440 --> 01:57:53.440 You can't do a thing if they don't tell you what you 01:57:53.440 --> 01:57:54.160 need to do. 01:57:54.160 --> 01:57:56.720 And of course that's part of the reason for this. 01:57:56.720 --> 01:58:00.400 If you're in this constant sense of angst and uncertainty, you're always 01:58:00.400 --> 01:58:02.080 going to look for more to do. 01:58:02.080 --> 01:58:02.960 And that's what it is. 01:58:02.960 --> 01:58:05.920 It's a vicious cycle to cause despair. 01:58:05.920 --> 01:58:09.360 And then the term, the next one is, of course, dispassion. 01:58:09.360 --> 01:58:12.080 This again, very important for the Stoics. 01:58:12.080 --> 01:58:16.640 It is being free from, in the Stoic sense, the passions. 01:58:16.640 --> 01:58:18.000 The Stoics understood that. 01:58:18.000 --> 01:58:22.160 That was basically you should not be controlled by your emotions, rather, 01:58:22.160 --> 01:58:25.440 you should be controlled by your reason and your logic. 01:58:25.440 --> 01:58:29.920 They wanted rational control over the passions. 01:58:29.920 --> 01:58:34.160 Partly because Greek philosophy was largely Gnostic, and so there was this 01:58:34.160 --> 01:58:39.120 exercise of the rational soul over the irrational material the body, but 01:58:39.120 --> 01:58:41.280 also just because they did not want to be ruled by the 01:58:41.280 --> 01:58:45.600 emotions. By and large, not being ruled by the emotions is a 01:58:45.600 --> 01:58:48.000 fine goal. 01:58:48.000 --> 01:58:53.360 Making yourself entirely dispassionate or apathetic is not a good goal. 01:58:53.360 --> 01:58:57.440 God gave us emotions, we have them for a reason. 01:58:57.440 --> 01:59:02.800 If you are entirely dispassionate in your relationship with your wife, odds 01:59:02.800 --> 01:59:05.520 are your marriage will not last very long. 01:59:05.520 --> 01:59:09.440 The goal of the Christian life, the goal of human life, is 01:59:09.440 --> 01:59:13.040 not to completely cleanse yourself of the passions Yes, you need to 01:59:13.040 --> 01:59:16.400 bring them under control to some degree, and you should most certainly 01:59:16.400 --> 01:59:19.120 not let your sinful nature run wild. 01:59:19.120 --> 01:59:24.480 But completely jettising the passions is not part of the Christian faith, 01:59:24.480 --> 01:59:27.440 it is not part of human life, properly understood how God wants 01:59:27.440 --> 01:59:29.760 us to live. 01:59:29.760 --> 01:59:36.880 In the EO sense, most of them seem to characterize this dispassion 01:59:36.880 --> 01:59:41.760 as mastery over wrong wrongful or misguided passions. 01:59:41.760 --> 01:59:43.280 So I will give them their credit there. 01:59:43.280 --> 01:59:46.080 They seem to be clearer on their definition of what they mean 01:59:46.080 --> 01:59:50.800 when it comes to dispassion, more so than catharsis. 01:59:50.800 --> 01:59:54.160 Yes, I realize there's a little bit of contradiction there, but that's 01:59:54.160 --> 01:59:56.320 simply what their writings say. 01:59:56.320 --> 01:59:58.880 And so this relates to your spiritual growth. 01:59:58.880 --> 02:00:03.600 You're supposed to bring these things under your control, and they help 02:00:03.600 --> 02:00:07.680 you to complete more and greater good works in your life because 02:00:07.680 --> 02:00:10.720 you're no longer distracted by these things. 02:00:10.720 --> 02:00:15.280 Which, of course, is a problem, because essentially what they're saying is 02:00:15.280 --> 02:00:22.160 Gnostic. This is just Gnosticism cloaked in supposed Christianity, saying that it 02:00:22.160 --> 02:00:25.120 is the body that is wicked and wrong and we have to 02:00:25.120 --> 02:00:27.840 bring it under the rational control of the soul. 02:00:27.840 --> 02:00:30.960 Of course, the problem with that, additionally, another layer, is 02:00:32.000 --> 02:00:34.960 that the East again essentially rejects reason? 02:00:34.960 --> 02:00:38.400 So there's no way to square this circle, but this is just 02:00:38.400 --> 02:00:43.440 the basic outline of these terms and the setting for how they 02:00:43.440 --> 02:00:44.800 view things. 02:00:44.800 --> 02:00:49.280 If it's confusing, don't blame me. 02:00:49.280 --> 02:00:50.880 I didn't write these books. 02:00:50.880 --> 02:00:53.520 I didn't write these treatises. 02:00:53.520 --> 02:00:57.280 But now I want to switch gears, as it were, to a 02:00:57.280 --> 02:00:59.040 subject that is much more clear. 02:00:59.200 --> 02:01:02.800 And you will see it is clear because for this particular section 02:01:02.800 --> 02:01:07.360 of this episode, I will comment a little bit on one or 02:01:07.360 --> 02:01:10.960 two, maybe three of these passages, but I just want to read 02:01:10.960 --> 02:01:14.640 a few relatively short passages from scripture. 02:01:14.640 --> 02:01:19.440 This is dealing with penal substitutionary atonement, and I just want you 02:01:19.440 --> 02:01:23.840 to have this in mind, a refresher, as it were, before we 02:01:23.840 --> 02:01:30.080 get into Palamus and the essence energy's distinction. 02:01:30.080 --> 02:01:34.640 And so the first reading is from Isaiah, Isaiah 53. 02:01:34.640 --> 02:01:38.320 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our 02:01:38.320 --> 02:01:43.360 iniquities, upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with 02:01:43.360 --> 02:01:45.440 his wounds we are healed. 02:01:45.440 --> 02:01:49.360 All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one 02:01:49.360 --> 02:01:52.560 to his own way, and the Lord has laid on him the 02:01:52.560 --> 02:01:54.960 iniquity of us all. 02:01:54.960 --> 02:01:58.560 The second is from Romans three. 02:01:58.560 --> 02:02:01.920 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the 02:02:01.920 --> 02:02:05.360 law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the 02:02:05.360 --> 02:02:09.680 righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. 02:02:09.680 --> 02:02:12.960 For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short 02:02:12.960 --> 02:02:16.880 of the glory of God, and are justified by His grace as 02:02:16.880 --> 02:02:20.880 a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God 02:02:20.880 --> 02:02:25.120 put forward as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by 02:02:25.120 --> 02:02:30.080 faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance 02:02:30.240 --> 02:02:32.560 he has passed over former sins. 02:02:32.560 --> 02:02:35.840 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that 02:02:35.840 --> 02:02:38.800 he might be just and the justifier of the one who has 02:02:38.800 --> 02:02:40.480 faith in Jesus. 02:02:41.520 --> 02:02:44.560 The next is from Second Corinthians. 02:02:44.560 --> 02:02:47.920 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no 02:02:47.920 --> 02:02:52.880 sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 02:02:52.880 --> 02:02:54.560 Galatians three. 02:02:54.560 --> 02:02:58.080 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a 02:02:58.080 --> 02:02:59.360 curse for us. 02:02:59.360 --> 02:03:02.640 For it is written, Cursed is every one who is hanged on 02:03:02.640 --> 02:03:06.560 a tree, so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might 02:03:06.560 --> 02:03:10.560 come to the nations, so that we might receive the promised Spirit 02:03:10.560 --> 02:03:11.920 through faith. 02:03:11.920 --> 02:03:15.920 First Peter, He himself bore our sins in his body on the 02:03:15.920 --> 02:03:20.240 tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness, by 02:03:20.240 --> 02:03:24.800 his wounds you have been healed, for you were straying like sheep, 02:03:24.800 --> 02:03:28.800 but have returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls. 02:03:28.800 --> 02:03:30.320 Again, first Peter. 02:03:30.320 --> 02:03:34.880 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, 02:03:34.880 --> 02:03:37.760 that he might bring us to God, being put to death in 02:03:37.760 --> 02:03:40.800 the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. 02:03:40.880 --> 02:03:45.680 First John, He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for 02:03:45.680 --> 02:03:49.200 our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 02:03:49.200 --> 02:03:52.240 Now I want to stop here briefly and comment on a word, 02:03:52.240 --> 02:03:56.080 because undoubtedly you have all heard the word, but maybe you don't 02:03:56.000 --> 02:04:00.160 know exactly what it means, and that word is propitiation. 02:04:00.160 --> 02:04:06.560 Propitiation comes from popitiatio, from propitiare, which means to win the favor 02:04:06.800 --> 02:04:09.840 of a god by presenting something that pleases him 02:04:11.280 --> 02:04:16.000 Christ is the propitiation because his offering, again, the totality of his 02:04:16.080 --> 02:04:20.160 life and death, his offering to God was pleasing. 02:04:20.160 --> 02:04:23.600 It atoned for sin, all sin. 02:04:23.600 --> 02:04:26.880 The next reading is from Hebrews nine. 02:04:26.880 --> 02:04:32.080 Indeed under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without 02:04:32.080 --> 02:04:36.560 the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. 02:04:36.560 --> 02:04:38.400 Again, Hebrews 9. 02:04:38.400 --> 02:04:42.320 So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, 02:04:42.320 --> 02:04:45.760 will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to 02:04:45.760 --> 02:04:50.160 save those who are eagerly waiting for him. 02:04:50.480 --> 02:04:55.520 Now from these passages, and obviously there are others, it is very 02:04:55.520 --> 02:04:56.000 clear 02:04:57.200 --> 02:05:00.880 the teaching of Scripture with regard to what the good news is, 02:05:00.880 --> 02:05:04.480 and that's all gospel means, gospel is the good news, is that 02:05:04.480 --> 02:05:06.960 Christ has paid the price. 02:05:06.960 --> 02:05:10.080 He died in our place. 02:05:10.080 --> 02:05:13.440 That is substitutionary atonement. 02:05:13.440 --> 02:05:15.520 And it is of a penal nature. 02:05:15.520 --> 02:05:19.920 Scripture speaks elsewhere of the legal debt. 02:05:19.920 --> 02:05:27.280 Scripture speaks in many places, in legal language, of this wonderful exchange, 02:05:27.280 --> 02:05:32.800 as Luther called it, Christ's death is good news for us, because 02:05:32.800 --> 02:05:35.520 we no longer have to suffer eternally for our sins. 02:05:35.520 --> 02:05:41.360 Because of course, again, the debt of sin being infinite, the price 02:05:41.360 --> 02:05:45.120 necessary to pay for it is also infinite, and so it is 02:05:45.120 --> 02:05:48.080 only the death of God, the death of Christ, the Son of 02:05:48.080 --> 02:05:52.160 God, that can pay that infinite price. 02:05:52.160 --> 02:05:56.640 All those in hell are paying the price of their sins. 02:05:56.640 --> 02:06:00.320 The problem for them is that again the price is infinite, and 02:06:00.320 --> 02:06:05.040 to pay an infinite price as a finite creature requires an infinite 02:06:05.040 --> 02:06:08.400 time. And that is why hell is infinite. 02:06:08.480 --> 02:06:12.880 And so it is good news that we have been declared 02:06:14.080 --> 02:06:18.640 innocent. We have been declared righteous because of Christ's work on his 02:06:18.720 --> 02:06:20.240 behalf, because of his blood. 02:06:21.520 --> 02:06:24.720 And that is a legal declaration. 02:06:24.720 --> 02:06:27.280 It is juridical, one of the terms that the E.O. 02:06:27.360 --> 02:06:30.960 like to use to deride penal substitutionary atonement. 02:06:30.960 --> 02:06:34.160 This is simply the language that Scripture uses. 02:06:34.160 --> 02:06:34.880 Scripture speaks 02:06:35.840 --> 02:06:40.320 of God having a court, of there being a judgment. 02:06:40.320 --> 02:06:43.440 I don't know what these people think a judgment is, but a 02:06:43.440 --> 02:06:47.680 judgment is a legal declaration, it is a legal process. 02:06:48.080 --> 02:06:51.280 Many of you have probably seen one of the most famous uh 02:06:51.440 --> 02:06:56.000 screenshots on uh theology Twitter that I appear in a couple of 02:06:56.000 --> 02:06:56.960 years ago. 02:06:56.960 --> 02:07:02.000 Uh another EO guy was saying Protestant theology is pagan in philosophical 02:07:02.000 --> 02:07:04.880 orientation due to penal substitutionary atonement. 02:07:04.880 --> 02:07:06.560 It isn't too complex, mate. 02:07:06.560 --> 02:07:10.720 The Church Fathers clearly teach Christus Victor and Theosis. 02:07:10.720 --> 02:07:13.360 And I replied to him, quote, And you who were dead in 02:07:13.360 --> 02:07:17.440 your trespasses in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together 02:07:17.440 --> 02:07:21.360 with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by cancelling the record 02:07:21.360 --> 02:07:24.560 of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. 02:07:24.560 --> 02:07:27.600 This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 02:07:27.600 --> 02:07:31.600 I attributed that quote to Luther, which was the trap. 02:07:31.600 --> 02:07:33.680 It's also true, we'll get that in a second. 02:07:33.680 --> 02:07:36.080 And he replied, I don't care what Luther says, I care what 02:07:36.080 --> 02:07:38.000 the Church Fathers and Apostles said. 02:07:38.000 --> 02:07:39.440 I said, Do you reject that statement? 02:07:39.760 --> 02:07:43.440 To which he replied, I subscribe to Christus Victor and Theosis. 02:07:43.440 --> 02:07:46.400 The last part of that is making it transactional and pits the 02:07:46.400 --> 02:07:47.440 son against the Father. 02:07:47.440 --> 02:07:49.920 To which I replied, Then you have a real problem, because that's 02:07:49.920 --> 02:07:52.400 Colossians two, thirteen and fourteen. 02:07:52.400 --> 02:07:54.880 And And he's still mad to this day. 02:07:54.880 --> 02:07:58.480 They all get incredibly mad that it was cheating or whatever, it 02:07:58.480 --> 02:07:59.520 was unfair. 02:07:59.520 --> 02:08:00.960 He condemned Scripture. 02:08:00.960 --> 02:08:03.440 I read scripture to him and he said, That's evil. 02:08:03.440 --> 02:08:04.960 That is not my religion. 02:08:04.960 --> 02:08:07.040 The problem is that that's true. 02:08:07.040 --> 02:08:11.760 When these men are confronted with scripture, by and large, they revile 02:08:11.760 --> 02:08:14.000 it. And that's not unique to EO. 02:08:14.000 --> 02:08:16.640 The LCMS is going through the same thing right now. 02:08:16.640 --> 02:08:19.760 When Corey and I say what scripture says about other things, there 02:08:19.760 --> 02:08:21.680 are pastors who say we're going to hell. 02:08:21.680 --> 02:08:24.480 They say that's not our God, to which I can only say, 02:08:24.480 --> 02:08:28.400 okay, that's I hope that's not your final answer, because on judgment 02:08:28.400 --> 02:08:31.040 day, when you say that's not my God, you're going to be 02:08:31.040 --> 02:08:33.680 saying it to the God that you're rejecting. 02:08:33.680 --> 02:08:36.640 And the reason I attribute that to Luther it was it was 02:08:36.640 --> 02:08:39.440 sleight of hand, but Luther translated the entire Bible. 02:08:39.440 --> 02:08:43.040 So arguably you could attribute every verse in the Bible to Luther 02:08:43.040 --> 02:08:44.400 because he translated it. 02:08:44.400 --> 02:08:48.720 It was cheating a little bit, but I knew that hating PSA 02:08:49.040 --> 02:08:53.040 is hating scripture because Corey just read all those passages. 02:08:53.040 --> 02:08:59.120 Penal substitutionary atonement and the fact that we're talking about a divine 02:08:59.680 --> 02:09:05.040 court with evidence and judgment and sentence is Christian. 02:09:05.040 --> 02:09:10.640 That's the the earthly court is a model of the heavenly court. 02:09:10.640 --> 02:09:14.160 All these All these things that we have in human society we 02:09:14.160 --> 02:09:15.200 got from God. 02:09:15.200 --> 02:09:16.800 We borrowed from God. 02:09:17.120 --> 02:09:20.880 We have a type to God's anti-type. 02:09:20.880 --> 02:09:22.960 The perfect form is God's form. 02:09:22.960 --> 02:09:24.640 The imperfect form is our form. 02:09:24.640 --> 02:09:26.640 But it's the same stuff. 02:09:26.640 --> 02:09:29.360 So there's no pagan philosophy here. 02:09:29.360 --> 02:09:30.800 It's just scripture. 02:09:30.800 --> 02:09:35.280 And that's what they must necessarily reject reject in order to hold 02:09:35.280 --> 02:09:37.840 to their ob their beliefs. 02:09:37.840 --> 02:09:42.160 There is a video of an EO priest saying that one of 02:09:42.160 --> 02:09:46.800 the reasons, or perhaps the reason, why the crucifixion was necessary, is 02:09:46.800 --> 02:09:50.960 that it makes for a good story. 02:09:50.960 --> 02:09:56.480 That is the fruit of denying penal substitutionary atonement. 02:09:56.480 --> 02:10:00.080 I'm not saying that Christus Victor is wrong. 02:10:00.080 --> 02:10:02.960 I'm not saying that the ransom theory is wrong. 02:10:02.960 --> 02:10:04.480 These things are all part of it. 02:10:04.480 --> 02:10:08.960 There are many aspects to the crucifixion, the resurrection, the entirety of 02:10:08.960 --> 02:10:09.920 the story. 02:10:09.920 --> 02:10:16.160 But the beating heart of the gospel is penal substitutionary atonement. 02:10:16.160 --> 02:10:18.080 You and I sinned. 02:10:18.080 --> 02:10:19.680 We must be punished for that. 02:10:19.680 --> 02:10:21.840 That is the penal part. 02:10:21.840 --> 02:10:25.600 Christ died for us as a substitute. 02:10:25.600 --> 02:10:28.320 Obviously, that's the substitutionary part. 02:10:28.320 --> 02:10:32.640 His death was sufficient to atone for our sins. 02:10:32.640 --> 02:10:35.040 That is the atonement part. 02:10:35.040 --> 02:10:38.240 PSA is simply the teaching of Scripture. 02:10:38.240 --> 02:10:40.800 Again, it is the good news. 02:10:40.800 --> 02:10:43.360 You cannot reject it and be Christian. 02:10:43.360 --> 02:10:46.080 Scripture is abundantly clear on this point. 02:10:46.080 --> 02:10:50.400 There are few things, perhaps nothing on which Scripture is more clear, 02:10:50.400 --> 02:10:53.120 than that this is the good news, and one would hope of 02:10:53.120 --> 02:10:55.520 all things that Scripture is clear about the gospel, and it most 02:10:55.520 --> 02:10:57.360 certainly is. 02:10:57.360 --> 02:11:03.680 But that leads us into really our final section for this episode. 02:11:03.680 --> 02:11:06.080 And this is one of the big differences. 02:11:06.080 --> 02:11:09.120 Obviously, there are a number of them as we have detailed so 02:11:09.120 --> 02:11:12.560 far, but this is one of the big differences between the theology 02:11:12.560 --> 02:11:16.160 of the East and the theology of the West. 02:11:16.160 --> 02:11:17.760 Which I'll just be blunt. 02:11:17.760 --> 02:11:20.640 It's the difference between the theology of the Christian Church, which is 02:11:20.640 --> 02:11:26.720 the West, and the theology of the Eastern religion, whatever they want 02:11:26.720 --> 02:11:27.280 to call it. 02:11:27.280 --> 02:11:28.720 It's not Christian. 02:11:28.720 --> 02:11:32.080 And again, we're not saying that there are no Christians, because wherever 02:11:32.080 --> 02:11:35.600 God's word is read, it does not return to him empty, it 02:11:35.600 --> 02:11:37.280 is not fruitless. 02:11:37.280 --> 02:11:41.040 There are Christians in the Mormon church. 02:11:41.040 --> 02:11:44.880 Again, not a church, but there are Christians, some few of them. 02:11:44.880 --> 02:11:49.040 The same thing is true with regard to the EO. 02:11:49.040 --> 02:11:52.560 But if you actually believe what they teach, if you delve deeply 02:11:52.560 --> 02:11:55.120 into it, you will not remain a Christian. 02:11:55.120 --> 02:11:58.080 You will become an apostate, and you will probably, if you engage 02:11:58.400 --> 02:12:04.160 in these practices, wind up possessed, at the very least demon oppressed. 02:12:04.160 --> 02:12:06.240 I do not want to go into 02:12:07.520 --> 02:12:09.920 the philosophy of this too deeply 02:12:11.200 --> 02:12:17.520 because it gets a little complicated, but it's very simple to understand 02:12:18.160 --> 02:12:23.760 at a higher level from a bird's eye view as it were. 02:12:24.080 --> 02:12:28.640 Before I get into the essence energy's distinction properly, I want to 02:12:28.640 --> 02:12:34.080 read the second paragraph from the Athanasian Creed, and you'll see why 02:12:34.240 --> 02:12:37.760 when I actually describe the EE. 02:12:37.760 --> 02:12:41.920 And the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in 02:12:41.920 --> 02:12:48.000 Trinity, and Trinity in unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the 02:12:48.000 --> 02:12:54.400 substance. The Greek word there is Usia, the Latin word is substantia. 02:12:54.400 --> 02:12:58.480 For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, 02:12:58.480 --> 02:13:04.800 and another of the Holy Ghost, but the godhead divinitas Thaetes, of 02:13:04.800 --> 02:13:08.880 the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all 02:13:08.880 --> 02:13:14.240 one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal, such as the Father is, 02:13:14.240 --> 02:13:18.320 such as the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost, the Father 02:13:18.480 --> 02:13:25.920 uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated, the Father incomprehensible, 02:13:25.920 --> 02:13:31.600 the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible, the Father Eternal, the 02:13:31.600 --> 02:13:36.320 Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal, and yet they are not 02:13:36.320 --> 02:13:41.440 three eternals, but one eternal, as there are not three uncreated, nor 02:13:41.440 --> 02:13:47.760 three incomprehensibles, but only one uncreated and one incomprehensible. 02:13:47.760 --> 02:13:52.960 So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy 02:13:52.960 --> 02:13:58.720 Ghost Almighty, and yet they are not three Almigs, but one Almighty. 02:13:58.720 --> 02:14:02.640 So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy 02:14:02.640 --> 02:14:06.400 Ghost is God, and yet they are not three gods, but one 02:14:06.400 --> 02:14:11.120 God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son, Lord, and the 02:14:11.120 --> 02:14:16.080 Holy Ghost, Lord, and yet not three Lords, but one Lord. 02:14:16.080 --> 02:14:19.920 For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge 02:14:19.920 --> 02:14:23.680 every person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we 02:14:23.680 --> 02:14:28.080 forbidden by the Catholic religion to say, there be three gods or 02:14:28.080 --> 02:14:30.400 three lords. 02:14:30.400 --> 02:14:33.040 And just to make sure that those who are not as familiar 02:14:33.040 --> 02:14:37.120 with the terms recognize that last bit there, every person by himself 02:14:37.120 --> 02:14:41.360 to be God is capital P, person, meaning the persons of the 02:14:41.360 --> 02:14:44.080 Trinity. We're not Mormon. 02:14:44.080 --> 02:14:49.440 Now The reason that this is important is that the two terms 02:14:49.440 --> 02:14:54.000 that I emphasize by stating them both in Greek and Latin, substance 02:14:54.000 --> 02:15:01.280 and godhead, play into the essence energy's distinction. 02:15:01.280 --> 02:15:04.000 I won't bury the lead as it were, I will simply state 02:15:04.000 --> 02:15:09.680 outright. The Eastern conception of the essence energies distinction is polytheistic. 02:15:09.680 --> 02:15:13.680 And the reason that it is polytheistic is that it posits a 02:15:13.680 --> 02:15:20.480 real distinction between God's essence and his energies while maintaining that both 02:15:20.480 --> 02:15:21.760 are divine. 02:15:23.200 --> 02:15:26.720 Now there's a little philosophy here, but very little, and it's very 02:15:26.720 --> 02:15:28.160 easy to understand. 02:15:28.160 --> 02:15:31.840 The difference between a formal distinction and a real distinction is the 02:15:31.840 --> 02:15:36.080 difference between a distinction in terms and a distinction in we'll call 02:15:36.080 --> 02:15:38.720 it kind, for the sake of simplicity. 02:15:39.520 --> 02:15:43.280 If you say that someone is your son, and you say that 02:15:43.280 --> 02:15:46.320 he is John, those can both be true. 02:15:46.320 --> 02:15:48.240 There's a formal distinction there. 02:15:48.240 --> 02:15:51.680 Just to use a very easy to understand example. 02:15:51.680 --> 02:15:55.600 There's no actual distinction between John and your son, assuming your son 02:15:55.600 --> 02:15:58.400 is named John. 02:15:58.400 --> 02:16:04.720 However, the distinction between John and his brother James is a real 02:16:04.720 --> 02:16:08.160 distinction. They are not the same person. 02:16:08.160 --> 02:16:12.240 This is a vitally important thing in theology 02:16:13.200 --> 02:16:16.640 for well, a complicated reason, to be frank, but a reason that 02:16:16.640 --> 02:16:20.000 I can explain in a simple way. 02:16:20.000 --> 02:16:21.280 God is 02:16:22.480 --> 02:16:27.680 simple. Simple means not composed of parts in the philosophical sense. 02:16:27.680 --> 02:16:28.400 God is also 02:16:29.360 --> 02:16:37.360 goodness, beauty, truth, being, and unity, to list the five transcendentals. 02:16:37.360 --> 02:16:38.880 He is all those things. 02:16:38.880 --> 02:16:44.800 God is omnipresent, God is omniscient, God is omnipotent. 02:16:44.800 --> 02:16:46.400 We speak in these terms. 02:16:46.400 --> 02:16:49.600 We say that God is, and then we reference not a part 02:16:49.600 --> 02:16:53.120 of God, and not really actually an aspect, but we can use 02:16:53.120 --> 02:16:57.440 the term aspect because it's comprehensible an aspect of God, we speak 02:16:57.440 --> 02:17:00.880 in those terms because as a human being, as human beings, we 02:17:00.880 --> 02:17:02.480 are limited. 02:17:02.480 --> 02:17:06.640 We cannot grasp the essence of God as it is. 02:17:06.640 --> 02:17:09.840 We cannot grasp God as He is in Himself. 02:17:10.000 --> 02:17:13.440 But we can speak about these things that He has revealed to 02:17:13.440 --> 02:17:16.240 us, whether they are revealed in Scripture or they are revealed in 02:17:16.240 --> 02:17:20.720 nature, in creation, because yes, creation does tell us about God. 02:17:20.720 --> 02:17:24.640 We can learn things about God from what He has created. 02:17:24.640 --> 02:17:25.600 That should be obvious. 02:17:25.600 --> 02:17:28.320 You can learn something about the artist by his art. 02:17:28.320 --> 02:17:29.200 We all know that. 02:17:29.200 --> 02:17:32.320 You can learn something about the author by his writings. 02:17:32.320 --> 02:17:35.280 You can learn something about me and about Woe from listening to 02:17:35.280 --> 02:17:37.440 us on this podcast. 02:17:37.440 --> 02:17:40.560 God is the author, God is the artist of creation. 02:17:40.560 --> 02:17:44.000 We can learn about him from what he created. 02:17:44.000 --> 02:17:46.880 But when we speak about God, we have to speak 02:17:47.760 --> 02:17:51.600 in these little divisions because of our limitations. 02:17:51.600 --> 02:17:53.680 God does this as well when he speaks in Scripture. 02:17:53.680 --> 02:17:58.560 He condescends to our level and speaks in terms we understand. 02:17:58.560 --> 02:18:05.200 But Western philosophy, Western theology properly recognizes that God is one. 02:18:05.200 --> 02:18:08.080 Scripture has something to say about that, perhaps you know what verse 02:18:08.080 --> 02:18:10.000 I have in mind. 02:18:10.000 --> 02:18:15.760 And so God is again unity is one of the transcendentals. 02:18:15.760 --> 02:18:17.040 He is not divided. 02:18:17.040 --> 02:18:19.120 He does not have parts. 02:18:19.120 --> 02:18:23.280 And so if you speak about God's essence as being divine, this 02:18:23.280 --> 02:18:24.960 is the Eastern conception again. 02:18:24.960 --> 02:18:29.840 If you speak about God's essence as being divine, and yet also 02:18:29.840 --> 02:18:36.880 his energies being divine, and there being a real distinction between them, 02:18:36.880 --> 02:18:39.760 your God is no longer unified, your God is no longer God. 02:18:40.800 --> 02:18:44.080 It may be that essence of which you speak is God, although 02:18:44.080 --> 02:18:47.280 in the Eastern case it's not, but then the energies can't be 02:18:47.280 --> 02:18:51.440 God. And so you wind up with at least di-theism, but really 02:18:51.760 --> 02:18:55.760 polytheism, because they say there are many energies, and yet they're all 02:18:55.760 --> 02:19:01.280 divine. There's another aspect that is worth noting of this in Palamus, 02:19:01.280 --> 02:19:04.880 and so this is the EO position, they hold that some of 02:19:04.880 --> 02:19:08.400 these divine energies had a beginning. 02:19:09.040 --> 02:19:13.040 And for those who are versed in philosophy or theology, you'll immediately 02:19:13.040 --> 02:19:14.480 recognize the problem here. 02:19:14.480 --> 02:19:18.320 That which has a beginning cannot be God, definitionally. 02:19:18.960 --> 02:19:23.200 And so if there are energies that are divine but have a 02:19:23.200 --> 02:19:26.320 beginning, that's another god. 02:19:26.320 --> 02:19:29.360 This entire system is polytheistic. 02:19:29.360 --> 02:19:32.640 There is no way around this problem. 02:19:32.960 --> 02:19:40.240 Their conception of God, this essence energies distinction, is necessarily polytheistic. 02:19:40.240 --> 02:19:43.040 It is unavoidably polytheistic. 02:19:43.040 --> 02:19:47.680 And a particularly damning passage in Palamas 02:19:48.640 --> 02:19:54.480 speaks of it in terms that are completely and utterly undeniable. 02:19:54.480 --> 02:19:59.120 It is very clear to anyone reading this that the Eor polytheistic. 02:19:59.120 --> 02:20:02.080 I said the the word for godhead as used in the Greek 02:20:02.080 --> 02:20:04.640 is theatase. 02:20:04.640 --> 02:20:07.920 But I'll spare you the Greek because quite frankly I don't want 02:20:07.920 --> 02:20:09.520 to bother having to pronounce it. 02:20:09.760 --> 02:20:14.560 There are two terms used, and the two terms, both attached to 02:20:14.560 --> 02:20:21.680 theatase as descriptors, as adjectives, are one is transcendent 02:20:21.680 --> 02:20:27.200 or higher, the other The other is imminent or lower. 02:20:27.200 --> 02:20:32.800 And so in this passage, Palamas speaks of a higher deity and 02:20:32.800 --> 02:20:34.800 a lower deity. 02:20:34.800 --> 02:20:40.160 He speaks of two gods in explicit terms. 02:20:40.160 --> 02:20:41.280 This is the belief. 02:20:41.280 --> 02:20:44.960 This is the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox. 02:20:44.960 --> 02:20:47.280 This is not Christianity. 02:20:47.280 --> 02:20:52.080 In Christianity, we worship the Trinity. 02:20:52.080 --> 02:20:54.800 The Trinity is one God. 02:20:54.800 --> 02:20:57.360 As I just read from the Athanasian Creed. 02:20:57.360 --> 02:20:59.840 That is what Christians believe. 02:20:59.840 --> 02:21:02.320 And at the end of the Athanasian Creed, of course it says 02:21:02.320 --> 02:21:07.280 if you do not hold this Catholic faith whole and undefiled, you 02:21:07.280 --> 02:21:08.080 are no Christian. 02:21:08.080 --> 02:21:09.200 You're outside the church. 02:21:09.200 --> 02:21:11.120 You're damned. 02:21:11.120 --> 02:21:13.920 That is the belief of Christians. 02:21:13.920 --> 02:21:20.240 Not this distinction between the essence and the energies leading to polytheism. 02:21:20.240 --> 02:21:24.400 And so like I said, it is relatively philosophically complicated if you 02:21:24.400 --> 02:21:28.160 get into the details, but at the same time, it is very 02:21:28.160 --> 02:21:33.760 easily understood at a high level, the EO posit a real distinction 02:21:34.080 --> 02:21:42.320 between God's essence and his energies, and therefore they are necessarily polytheistic. 02:21:42.320 --> 02:21:45.600 And the reason this ties back into their practices and how this 02:21:45.600 --> 02:21:49.120 is part of their overall system, is they say that that uncreated 02:21:49.120 --> 02:21:52.400 light of God that they see through their hesychastic so called prayer 02:21:52.960 --> 02:21:55.760 is an energy from God. 02:21:55.760 --> 02:21:59.360 And so they say they are seeing the uncreated light of God, 02:21:59.360 --> 02:22:03.280 which is an energy that is divine, that is again uncreated, so 02:22:03.280 --> 02:22:04.880 has no beginning. 02:22:04.880 --> 02:22:09.920 And this is God, but it's not the essence of God. 02:22:09.920 --> 02:22:14.080 The essence of God being truly distinct, being really distinct, and therefore 02:22:14.080 --> 02:22:17.680 being another God. 02:22:17.680 --> 02:22:21.920 There is no way to describe this, except well, gobbledygook, when you 02:22:21.920 --> 02:22:24.720 actually read his writing. 02:22:24.720 --> 02:22:26.560 But not Christian. 02:22:26.560 --> 02:22:30.560 This is polytheistic, this is paganism, this has no place in the 02:22:30.560 --> 02:22:35.600 church, and no Christian should entertain it for even a minute. 02:22:36.080 --> 02:22:39.920 It's worth noting that in Scripture, you know, in in the New 02:22:39.920 --> 02:22:45.440 Testament, in the Old Testament, and in particular in Revelation, the only 02:22:45.440 --> 02:22:48.480 way that a man could be in the presence of God was 02:22:48.480 --> 02:22:49.920 not to see him. 02:22:49.920 --> 02:22:53.920 To see God is to be struck dead. 02:22:53.920 --> 02:22:56.320 That's how God works. 02:22:56.320 --> 02:23:02.480 That was what made the incarnation so profoundly special was that the 02:23:02.480 --> 02:23:04.320 infinite uncreated God 02:23:05.280 --> 02:23:10.080 entered into creation and was a man that could be seen and 02:23:10.080 --> 02:23:13.600 touched and perceived and you could talk to him in a way 02:23:13.600 --> 02:23:16.400 that was not present in the Theophanes 02:23:17.280 --> 02:23:18.400 uh well 02:23:19.520 --> 02:23:22.720 that was that is not present when you're dealing with the other 02:23:22.720 --> 02:23:25.520 manners in which God appears. 02:23:25.920 --> 02:23:26.240 So 02:23:27.120 --> 02:23:31.920 there's an explicit claim that the EO make about seeing something that 02:23:31.920 --> 02:23:34.720 God says, if you see me, you will die. 02:23:34.720 --> 02:23:38.480 You know, when when a man has to shield his face or 02:23:38.480 --> 02:23:44.160 he will be struck dead when God passes by, that's precisely what 02:23:44.160 --> 02:23:45.920 we're talking about here. 02:23:45.920 --> 02:23:48.320 These people are saying, no, no, no, it's fine, you can look. 02:23:48.320 --> 02:23:51.840 God, God can reveal himself to you visually. 02:23:51.840 --> 02:23:54.000 And we're we're talking about the physical here. 02:23:54.000 --> 02:23:58.080 You know, it's it's akin to what happened when the man reached 02:23:58.080 --> 02:24:01.440 out to study the Ark of the Covenant, when it was being 02:24:01.440 --> 02:24:05.200 carried around on a cart and it s the oxen stumbled and 02:24:05.200 --> 02:24:08.800 it was about to hit the ground, man reached out to do 02:24:08.800 --> 02:24:12.000 the right thing, in one sense, to keep the Ark of the 02:24:12.000 --> 02:24:13.920 Covenant from hitting the ground. 02:24:13.920 --> 02:24:15.120 But God had said, A 02:24:16.320 --> 02:24:19.120 they were not permitted to do that and B don't touch it. 02:24:19.120 --> 02:24:22.560 And so when the man touched the ark, he was struck dead. 02:24:22.560 --> 02:24:25.680 That's what God's special presence is like. 02:24:25.680 --> 02:24:28.240 You die on contact. 02:24:28.240 --> 02:24:32.800 I I I hope that it's coming through that these guys can't 02:24:32.800 --> 02:24:34.480 be talking about God. 02:24:34.480 --> 02:24:40.000 All their claims that they're encountering something, I think in most cases 02:24:40.160 --> 02:24:43.520 we must take them at face value, but we cannot take the 02:24:43.520 --> 02:24:46.160 claims of the nature of what they're encountering. 02:24:46.160 --> 02:24:48.560 Then there is a very easy explanation. 02:24:49.200 --> 02:24:50.800 Test the spirits. 02:24:50.800 --> 02:24:54.400 When something comes to you and says I am an angel from 02:24:54.400 --> 02:24:58.640 God, if he has another message, he is to be anathema. 02:24:58.880 --> 02:25:02.800 That's not what we find when these men encounter things that say, 02:25:02.800 --> 02:25:04.400 Hey, I'm from God. 02:25:04.400 --> 02:25:08.160 Hey, look, you can see me here, even though with your own 02:25:08.160 --> 02:25:12.000 eyes, even though God says that will kill you, even though the 02:25:12.000 --> 02:25:17.040 practice by which that light is summoned is a demon summoning practice. 02:25:17.040 --> 02:25:20.560 They're doing something, but they're not getting God. 02:25:20.560 --> 02:25:21.040 And I 02:25:22.080 --> 02:25:25.840 it's one of the reasons that I I'm always f frustrated. 02:25:25.840 --> 02:25:29.520 I I try to be verbally frustrated when people we've said before 02:25:29.600 --> 02:25:32.800 like calling things woke or saying it's just fictional. 02:25:32.800 --> 02:25:37.040 When you don't take people's claims seriously when they're making a serious 02:25:37.040 --> 02:25:42.400 claim, you're gonna miss the fundamental nature of what's going on. 02:25:42.400 --> 02:25:46.800 So the cheap thing to do, the easy way out would be 02:25:46.800 --> 02:25:49.520 to say, oh those guys are crazy, you know, they're just they're 02:25:49.520 --> 02:25:54.800 hyperventilating and passing out and you know it's just it's neurons misfiring. 02:25:54.800 --> 02:25:59.760 I think that's disrespectful and I think it's spiritually dangerous because when 02:25:59.760 --> 02:26:03.520 they're making very specific claims that are consistent with the claims of 02:26:03.520 --> 02:26:07.840 demon worshippers in other false religions, and they get the same result, 02:26:07.840 --> 02:26:10.160 you have to take them seriously. 02:26:10.160 --> 02:26:14.880 And so this distinction of two gods is in a way it's 02:26:14.880 --> 02:26:16.800 their confession when 02:26:17.760 --> 02:26:22.320 the Christian faith says that God cannot be divided, and they say, 02:26:22.320 --> 02:26:24.800 look, here's a divided God appearing to us. 02:26:25.440 --> 02:26:27.040 They're kind of fessing up. 02:26:27.040 --> 02:26:28.160 They're telling the truth. 02:26:28.160 --> 02:26:32.880 They're at least admitting, they're confessing that God couldn't do this, that 02:26:32.880 --> 02:26:36.720 there's a different version of a different God that is manifesting. 02:26:36.720 --> 02:26:37.920 And that's true. 02:26:37.920 --> 02:26:41.680 It's a small g god, it's hell, it's Satan, it's a demon 02:26:41.680 --> 02:26:44.400 appearing to them, but something is appearing. 02:26:44.400 --> 02:26:48.640 It's not just a hallucination, it's not just them making up stories, 02:26:48.640 --> 02:26:52.240 they're actually doing it, and they're doing something wicked. 02:26:52.240 --> 02:26:52.560 To be 02:26:52.640 --> 02:26:56.880 To be entirely clear, there were a lot of other things in 02:26:57.200 --> 02:27:01.040 Palamus and elsewhere in EO Theology that could have been included in 02:27:01.040 --> 02:27:04.720 this episode, but as we've noted with other subjects, we did not 02:27:04.720 --> 02:27:06.320 want the episode to be six hours long. 02:27:06.320 --> 02:27:11.280 Although in fairness we have done that in multipart episodes now. 02:27:11.280 --> 02:27:14.000 There is one more thing that I want to pull out of 02:27:14.000 --> 02:27:18.320 some of my notes that I just noted was a thread running 02:27:18.320 --> 02:27:20.960 through Palamis and elsewhere. 02:27:22.000 --> 02:27:27.840 This is something that should cause Christians to recoil, particularly now that 02:27:27.840 --> 02:27:30.880 you've listened to some of the information about Eastern religions and some 02:27:30.880 --> 02:27:33.760 of their practices. 02:27:33.760 --> 02:27:39.360 Throughout the triads, and as I mentioned elsewhere in Eo writings, they 02:27:39.360 --> 02:27:46.560 say that you obtain this state of elevated consciousness, sometimes even described 02:27:46.560 --> 02:27:50.400 in terms that look like an out of body experience. 02:27:50.400 --> 02:27:55.600 But they say that you achieve this once quote all rational activity 02:27:55.600 --> 02:27:57.200 has ceased. 02:27:57.200 --> 02:28:00.720 I won't just leave you to try to ponder what that means. 02:28:00.720 --> 02:28:02.880 That's possession. 02:28:02.880 --> 02:28:08.400 Nowhere in Christianity are we to cease all rational activity, to totally 02:28:08.400 --> 02:28:13.440 empty ourselves and be taken over by some external force. 02:28:13.440 --> 02:28:15.920 That is not what it means to have the indwelling of the 02:28:15.920 --> 02:28:19.440 Spirit, to be indwelt by God. 02:28:19.440 --> 02:28:25.040 We don't become less human in paradise, in eternity, that is certainly 02:28:25.440 --> 02:28:28.960 a thread that runs through these teachings of Palamus and others. 02:28:28.960 --> 02:28:31.680 They seem to deny the reality of paradise. 02:28:31.680 --> 02:28:34.720 They seem to think that we just stare at God's face for 02:28:34.720 --> 02:28:40.000 eternity. That we see this magical light they describe, and that's our 02:28:40.000 --> 02:28:42.080 eternity. That's not what Scripture says. 02:28:42.080 --> 02:28:44.880 There's a new heavens and a new earth. 02:28:44.880 --> 02:28:48.800 God made us to be what we are. 02:28:48.800 --> 02:28:52.400 Yes, we exist today in a fallen state, but we will be 02:28:52.400 --> 02:28:56.640 restored to the state that Adam had in the garden before the 02:28:56.640 --> 02:29:02.560 fall. We will be perfect again, and we will still be flesh, 02:29:02.560 --> 02:29:06.080 because we are body and soul, and yes also mind. 02:29:06.080 --> 02:29:08.880 We are not just soul, we are not just spirit. 02:29:08.880 --> 02:29:11.760 We are not going to exist as the angels exist because we 02:29:11.760 --> 02:29:13.280 are not the angels. 02:29:13.280 --> 02:29:16.480 We do not exist to be angels, to become angels. 02:29:16.480 --> 02:29:19.360 God made angels to be angels. 02:29:19.360 --> 02:29:21.440 He made us to be human beings. 02:29:21.440 --> 02:29:22.960 He made us to be men. 02:29:22.960 --> 02:29:25.840 We are what we are, because that is what He intends for 02:29:25.840 --> 02:29:28.720 us to be, and that is what we will be in eternity. 02:29:28.720 --> 02:29:33.760 And so this idea that you totally empty yourself after every rational 02:29:33.760 --> 02:29:38.160 activity of the mind ceases, that is an actual quote from Palamus, 02:29:38.160 --> 02:29:41.520 and it is throughout, it is repeated many times. 02:29:41.520 --> 02:29:44.720 In one place it even says so much of these rational and 02:29:44.720 --> 02:29:49.360 intellectual activities cease that this includes prayer itself again a quote 02:29:51.280 --> 02:29:55.200 This is not what Christians do, this is not what Christians advocate, 02:29:55.200 --> 02:29:57.440 this is not what the scriptures teach. 02:29:57.440 --> 02:30:01.200 In one place it mentions being emptied of these activities to such 02:30:01.200 --> 02:30:04.960 a point that you are taken over entirely by what he calls 02:30:04.960 --> 02:30:08.480 the Spirit of God, but that is most not that is most 02:30:08.480 --> 02:30:10.720 certainly not the Spirit of God that is taking you over if 02:30:10.720 --> 02:30:15.280 you empty yourself entirely of your faculties, and then some external force 02:30:15.280 --> 02:30:17.840 appears and takes over. 02:30:17.840 --> 02:30:20.160 That is demonic possession. 02:30:20.160 --> 02:30:24.160 That is what is being taught by the EO. 02:30:24.160 --> 02:30:28.400 But to return to the point of the reality of the flesh 02:30:28.720 --> 02:30:31.200 contra the Gnosticism of the EO, 02:30:33.200 --> 02:30:37.360 Paradise is a physical paradise. 02:30:37.360 --> 02:30:41.520 In eternity, you will still be a man or a woman, whatever 02:30:41.520 --> 02:30:43.440 you are now. 02:30:43.440 --> 02:30:46.320 You will still be flesh and blood, because that is what God 02:30:46.320 --> 02:30:50.880 made you to be, and that is one of the things that 02:30:50.880 --> 02:30:54.640 is so wonderful about the incarnation. 02:30:54.640 --> 02:30:56.960 God became man. 02:30:56.960 --> 02:31:00.400 God took on, God assumed human flesh. 02:31:00.400 --> 02:31:03.440 And that is how we will see God face to face. 02:31:03.440 --> 02:31:06.800 We get to see God face to face because the fullness of 02:31:06.800 --> 02:31:10.000 deity dwells bodily in Christ, and we will see him face to 02:31:10.000 --> 02:31:13.600 face in eternity, we will see him face to face in paradise. 02:31:13.600 --> 02:31:19.200 And in seeing Christ, as he himself says, we see the Father. 02:31:19.200 --> 02:31:22.720 That is how Christians get to see God. 02:31:22.720 --> 02:31:26.560 You don't see God by staring at your navel, breathing heavily, and 02:31:26.560 --> 02:31:28.640 waiting until you see a light. 02:31:28.640 --> 02:31:33.760 Whether that light happens to be brain cells dying from hyperventilating or 02:31:33.760 --> 02:31:36.160 a demon taking possession. 02:31:36.160 --> 02:31:38.160 That is not the Christian practice. 02:31:38.160 --> 02:31:40.080 That is not the Christian hope. 02:31:40.080 --> 02:31:42.000 That is what the EO teach. 02:31:42.000 --> 02:31:46.240 And if they teach that, and it is contrary to Scripture, then 02:31:46.240 --> 02:31:48.960 they are not Christian. 02:31:48.960 --> 02:31:51.920 This is a vitally important point. 02:31:51.920 --> 02:31:55.120 We mentioned that we are we're not going to go through and 02:31:55.120 --> 02:31:58.320 refute every single point of what they teach, and we did not 02:31:58.320 --> 02:31:58.880 do that. 02:31:58.880 --> 02:32:00.320 That was never the intention. 02:32:00.320 --> 02:32:03.680 That would be a ridiculous waste of our time and yours. 02:32:04.240 --> 02:32:08.560 What we have done instead is pointed out some of the most 02:32:08.560 --> 02:32:14.080 salient, in some cases, literally the most salient, ways in which Eastern 02:32:14.080 --> 02:32:21.120 Orthodoxy is something other than Christianity, something alien to scripture, something alien 02:32:21.120 --> 02:32:23.440 to Christ Church. 02:32:23.440 --> 02:32:27.840 And the point is, how many of these problems can be present 02:32:28.080 --> 02:32:32.240 before you as a Christian must reject it. 02:32:32.240 --> 02:32:34.400 An example I've used. 02:32:34.400 --> 02:32:37.200 Perhaps it's a bit blunt and crass, but I'll use it because 02:32:37.200 --> 02:32:40.080 it gets the point across. 02:32:40.080 --> 02:32:44.160 If I hand you a bag full of dog feces and tell 02:32:44.160 --> 02:32:48.000 you there's a skittle in there, are you going to dig through 02:32:48.000 --> 02:32:50.080 and find the skittle to eat it? 02:32:50.320 --> 02:32:53.200 I would hope the answer is no. 02:32:53.200 --> 02:32:57.440 On the other hand, if I hand you an entire bag of 02:32:57.440 --> 02:33:04.240 MMs and I tell you, that bag is 99% MMs, one you're 02:33:04.240 --> 02:33:06.480 probably going to wonder what the 1% is and be a little 02:33:06.480 --> 02:33:07.200 hesitant to eat. 02:33:07.840 --> 02:33:11.280 But if I then tell you that the one percent, maybe it's 02:33:11.280 --> 02:33:13.920 just one piece, there's just one piece in there, it's not an 02:33:13.920 --> 02:33:17.600 M M, it's a piece of dog feces that I dipped in 02:33:17.600 --> 02:33:21.520 chocolate. Are you going to take a giant handful and eat it? 02:33:22.640 --> 02:33:25.600 Now, I said it's a somewhat crass example, but it gets the 02:33:25.600 --> 02:33:27.280 point across. 02:33:27.280 --> 02:33:30.000 In this case, it's even more important. 02:33:30.000 --> 02:33:33.200 Yes, eating the bag full of MMs would be deeply unwise and 02:33:33.200 --> 02:33:34.800 possibly endanger your health. 02:33:36.000 --> 02:33:40.800 These EO practices endanger your soul. 02:33:40.800 --> 02:33:46.160 There will be men, will be men, who spend eternity in hell 02:33:46.560 --> 02:33:51.520 because they looked too deeply into what the EO teach. 02:33:51.520 --> 02:33:56.560 On the other side, there will be those in EO churches who 02:33:56.720 --> 02:33:58.480 will spend eternity in paradise. 02:33:58.480 --> 02:34:01.360 I will be glad to meet them there, because they did not 02:34:01.360 --> 02:34:05.440 look into what their churches teach, because all they did was listen 02:34:05.440 --> 02:34:08.480 to scripture, and they believed in Jesus. 02:34:08.480 --> 02:34:12.000 And that is in fact sufficient, and so there are those in 02:34:12.000 --> 02:34:17.200 these wicked apostate churches, who will none the less, who will nevertheless 02:34:17.360 --> 02:34:18.960 be saved. 02:34:18.960 --> 02:34:21.360 But that does not mean that you should join them. 02:34:21.360 --> 02:34:24.800 You do not join a wicked body and hope for the best. 02:34:25.520 --> 02:34:29.840 I'm not saying, as we have been very clear to explain in 02:34:29.840 --> 02:34:34.080 previous episodes, I am not saying that if your church is not 02:34:34.240 --> 02:34:38.800 100% entirely perfect, that you must leave and find a new church, 02:34:38.800 --> 02:34:41.280 because if you keep doing that you will never find a church. 02:34:41.280 --> 02:34:42.080 There is no such thing. 02:34:42.080 --> 02:34:47.200 There are no perfect churches because they are all composed of, run 02:34:47.360 --> 02:34:51.600 by, taught by, led by, fallen men. 02:34:51.600 --> 02:34:55.200 In some cases, even worse, fallen women. 02:34:55.200 --> 02:34:57.440 Not in the composed by sense, but the other ones. 02:34:57.440 --> 02:34:59.440 Women are not supposed to be in positions of leadership, as we 02:34:59.440 --> 02:35:02.400 have clearly detailed elsewhere. 02:35:02.720 --> 02:35:06.960 Churches are always going to have these problems because in this life 02:35:07.120 --> 02:35:10.320 we will never be perfect, despite what again the EO teach about 02:35:10.320 --> 02:35:12.320 becoming sinless in this life. 02:35:12.320 --> 02:35:15.440 You will be a sinner until the day you die. 02:35:15.440 --> 02:35:20.960 The good news is that Christ already paid that price, gave you 02:35:20.960 --> 02:35:24.000 faith, and so it will not be counted against you at the 02:35:24.000 --> 02:35:28.640 judgment, because you will be able to point to Christ, say He 02:35:28.640 --> 02:35:30.640 died in my place. 02:35:30.640 --> 02:35:33.280 And so you get declared righteous on his behalf. 02:35:33.280 --> 02:35:36.320 That is the good news. 02:35:36.320 --> 02:35:38.960 And so I am not saying to leave your church because your 02:35:38.960 --> 02:35:39.760 church is imperfect. 02:35:39.760 --> 02:35:40.880 Because your church is imperfect. 02:35:40.880 --> 02:35:45.040 I can say that categorically, regardless of which church you attend, if 02:35:45.040 --> 02:35:49.840 you attend the best Lutheran church that has ever existed, and I'm 02:35:49.840 --> 02:35:52.160 saying that because of course I'm a Lutheran, I believe in Lutheran 02:35:52.160 --> 02:35:55.200 doctrine or I wouldn't be a Lutheran, if you attend the best 02:35:55.200 --> 02:35:58.560 Lutheran church that has ever existed in the history 02:35:59.440 --> 02:36:02.640 of Lutheranism in the history of the Christian church. 02:36:02.640 --> 02:36:04.960 It still won't be perfect. 02:36:04.960 --> 02:36:08.480 One of the best churches to exist in all of human history, 02:36:08.480 --> 02:36:13.840 obviously had to be the one led by Adam. 02:36:13.840 --> 02:36:16.480 And yet one of his parishioners killed the other 02:36:17.440 --> 02:36:19.440 in cold blood. 02:36:19.440 --> 02:36:22.320 His brother no less. 02:36:22.320 --> 02:36:25.040 There will always be imperfections in this life. 02:36:25.040 --> 02:36:28.000 The standard is not perfection. 02:36:28.000 --> 02:36:31.920 What we are saying with regard to the EO is not that 02:36:31.920 --> 02:36:36.160 this is a matter of heterodoxy or a matter even of just 02:36:36.160 --> 02:36:43.680 heresy. And yes, I recognize perhaps the irony of mitigating or minimizing 02:36:43.680 --> 02:36:46.880 the term heresy there, but in relation to what is actually at 02:36:46.880 --> 02:36:48.400 stake, it makes sense. 02:36:48.400 --> 02:36:52.960 What we are saying here is that what the EO teach is 02:36:52.960 --> 02:36:56.800 actively wicked, actively endangers your soul. 02:36:56.800 --> 02:37:02.000 You have the very, very real chance, the very real possibility, of 02:37:02.000 --> 02:37:06.080 becoming demon possessed if you engage in the practices that they say 02:37:06.960 --> 02:37:10.160 are necessary to your salvation. 02:37:10.160 --> 02:37:13.440 Because that is essentially what they teach about Hesachastic prayer. 02:37:13.440 --> 02:37:15.440 Now some of them will say that oh well it's not necessary 02:37:15.520 --> 02:37:17.280 it's just the monks that engage in that. 02:37:17.280 --> 02:37:19.520 I won't tell you to read the writings because I think it 02:37:19.520 --> 02:37:20.720 will probably harm your soul. 02:37:20.720 --> 02:37:23.360 It is not helpful to read these things. 02:37:23.360 --> 02:37:26.240 These things are wicked, and I'm not telling you that just because 02:37:26.320 --> 02:37:28.400 oh I don't want you to read it because there's secret knowledge 02:37:28.400 --> 02:37:28.880 in here. 02:37:28.880 --> 02:37:30.160 There's no secret knowledge. 02:37:30.160 --> 02:37:33.120 Again, Christianity is not a mystery religion. 02:37:33.120 --> 02:37:35.680 Read the scriptures, it is all in there. 02:37:35.680 --> 02:37:39.360 Compare what you know about them to what you see in Scripture. 02:37:40.880 --> 02:37:44.560 If you engage in these practices, you will put your soul at 02:37:44.560 --> 02:37:47.520 risk, you will put the souls of all those entrusted to your 02:37:47.520 --> 02:37:49.040 care at risk. 02:37:49.040 --> 02:37:52.160 Then quite frankly it will probably call down the judgment of God 02:37:52.160 --> 02:37:55.840 on the nation that tolerates this evil. 02:37:55.840 --> 02:37:59.200 We shouldn't think that God is idle, that He doesn't pay any 02:37:59.200 --> 02:38:00.720 attention to what it is we're doing. 02:38:00.720 --> 02:38:03.760 When we tolerate evil, there are real consequences. 02:38:03.760 --> 02:38:06.160 Look at what happened to Old Testament Israel. 02:38:07.280 --> 02:38:11.120 These are the sorts of things that if we had godly princes, 02:38:11.120 --> 02:38:14.160 they would address, because that is their task, that is their duty, 02:38:14.160 --> 02:38:16.800 to make sure that this sort of wickedness does not spring up 02:38:16.800 --> 02:38:21.760 in their lands, and therefore pollute them, and destroy the souls of 02:38:21.760 --> 02:38:26.400 all those entrusted to their care. 02:38:26.400 --> 02:38:29.840 And so I hope that anyone who has listened to this episode, 02:38:29.840 --> 02:38:31.600 particularly if you made it all the way to the end of 02:38:31.600 --> 02:38:33.840 the episode, is actually not as long as I thought it might 02:38:33.840 --> 02:38:34.160 be 02:38:35.200 --> 02:38:41.040 I hope that you can see that Eastern Orthodoxy, so-called, is certainly 02:38:41.040 --> 02:38:53.840 Eastern, certainly not orthodox, and most certainly not Christian.