WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Stone Choir Podcast.

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I am Corey J.

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Mahler. And I'm still Woe.

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On today's own choir, we're going to be discussing conflicts of interest

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or conflicted interest.

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For anyone who is joining us after the break that we took

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for December, thank you for checking out the back catalog and for

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coming back.

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The break was very helpful for my sanity.

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Thank you for the folks who gave some very generous donations just

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before and after Christmas.

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We appreciate that's a lot.

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And if you just joined us, we are not the firebomb throwing

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maniacs that everybody says we are.

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So you start listening, like that's not remotely what I was told.

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One of the reasons that we're doing this week's episode about conflicted

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interest is that we want to basically make the case that there

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are people in participation of the public discourse, of the conversations that

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are going on, both in both in public and in private, who

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should not be permitted to participate.

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There are people that need to be forced to shut up, not

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necessarily told to shut up unless they persist.

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But we have this egalitarian notion that everyone has to have their

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say and everyone has to participate.

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And there can be no possible discernment or regard for any particular

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man's motivations.

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You just say your piece.

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And it doesn't matter what sort of baggage or backstory anyone brings

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to the table.

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Everyone for every conversation you're just completely starting from scratch.

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Which is just crazy.

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That's not how human anything has ever worked.

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So we're going to make the case today for very basic principle

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that you find in the court system, you find in the civil

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law and contracts.

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And more generally it's something that I think we intuit some, but

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we do not apply it as rigorously as we should.

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And so we're gonna lay out some basic principles today for how

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to determine when something is a conflict of interest, when you have

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a conflicted interest.

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And

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again, the point is that when these things are detected, you have

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to change your attitude towards the person who's speaking because the presence

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of one of these conflicts conflict doesn't mean they're oh they're conflicted

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emotion. And so, you know, they're in turmoil or something.

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What it means is that they have two competing duties, and those

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competing duties are going to be waging war within that individual in

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a way that's probably going to be invisible to you, but it's

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going to be shaping what they do in such a way that

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you can't trust their outputs.

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Doesn't mean they're a bad person, it doesn't mean they're a liar.

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There's no negative moral connotation to someone having a conflict of interest.

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It simply means that for this particular set of circumstances, this guy

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you shouldn't listen to just because he's got something else going on

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that you don't.

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So that's the purpose of the episode.

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We often see everyone wants to you know get at the table

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and have his voice made public for everyone to hear and be

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taken seriously.

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But when you start looking at the backgrounds, you know, the genealogies

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of the men who are making those points, some wild things often

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emerge. And Corey and I have both seen this go on for

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years now where every time somebody comes after us for some particular

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subject and we'll get into a couple of those, it's inevitable that

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we'll find something in their personal backstory Story that shows that they

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have a bias.

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They have a conflict of interest that will cause them to oppose

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us, regardless of principle, regardless of whether we're right or wrong, you

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know, we're making some scriptural argument.

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They have a competing interest because what we're saying indicts them somehow.

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Not that it's a personal attack.

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It's just this is wrong and this person was doing something that

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we're saying is wrong.

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When they defend the thing that we're saying is wrong and they

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don't disclose that they're guilty of doing it, you know, guilt is

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begging the question.

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Maybe they're not guilty of anything, but the question is if the

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thing is wrong and this person is doing it, they should tell

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you that they're one of the people doing the thing.

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Say, I'm doing this, and so here's why it's not at all

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wrong. That would at least be honest.

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That would be a disclosure of, you know what?

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I've been a participant in this thing for years.

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Let me tell you how it's fine.

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That would be an honest approach of saying, look, here's my personal

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bias, here's where I'm coming from.

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But that's never anyone's opening salvo.

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And

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we try to make it a key part of when we make

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arguments. Many people have been going back and listening to the back

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catalog. In fact, our bandwidth for the last month where we didn't

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have an episode was as high as if we had.

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There's so many people going back is you know, when you get

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into the every episode that we've done, there's some meat there.

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There's something that's worth relistening to.

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The stuff is evergreen.

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Like we've succeeded in that.

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One of the things you'll very frequently hear us say is that

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we're not trying to defend ourselves by making some particular argument.

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We did an episode where just as an aside I mentioned for

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a couple minutes talking about interracial marriages and the laws in the

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past because we had been attacked for criticizing that.

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And I sort of abruptly ended my explanation by saying I'm not

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trying to defend our position.

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I'm just trying to explain there is an argument to be made

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that these guys don't want you to hear.

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And so I wasn't trying to defend what we said.

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I wasn't trying to convince anyone.

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And you'll hear me often say that where I'll like I'll say

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something to the effect that I'm not trying to you know make

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myself look good or trying to defend what we're doing.

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The reason for that is this, is that there's a conflict of

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interest in me telling you I'm a good guy.

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That's inherently conflicted because every man naturally wants everyone to think he's

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a good guy.

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No one wants to be hated and despised.

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You want people to think well of you.

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It's a pretty weird, messed up person who actively wants to be

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hated. So for Quarry or me to say, look, we're the good

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guys actually, here's all the reasons why we're good guys, that's completely

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conflicted. So we don't make those arguments because we know it's not

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convincing. I don't want anyone to get used to being convinced by

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unconvincing arguments, even if they're from us.

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So we'll point to things like here's a case where we are

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saying we're not guilty of anything, but that's also us defending ourselves,

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so you can't take that seriously just at face value.

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The distinction when you're looking at conflicts of interest is that there

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are motivations and there are you know maybe hidden facts and then

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there are public facts that someone can bring to bear and there

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are opinions.

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So, you know, for example, if I make an argument that people

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find super offensive, maybe I can lay out facts for here is

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why the argument is you know grounded in history and scripture or

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whatever, but if I have been positioned as the loathsome participant, I'm

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naturally going to be conflicted by trying to convince you I'm not

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loathsome. So the most that I can do at that point, once

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it's turned into a personality conflict and not just a discussion of

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ideas, which is how these things always end up when the fire

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is incoming.

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The most that we can do is lay out the facts, lay

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out the argument.

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We always have to acknowledge when we make an argument, we're doing

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it in such a way that will exonerate us as being evil.

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And so it's it's an inherent part of these episodes where we're

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tackling controversial subjects that people don't like and they get upset about.

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If we convince you, we're also secondarily convincing you that we're not

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the bad guys.

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And we would never even have to do that if not for

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the volume of slander that's been directed.

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So it's sort of unavoidable that to talk about the subject to

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convince someone, they're gonna conclude, well, if that guy was right about

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that and he wasn't doing anything that was really wrong, I'm not

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sure why I should hate him.

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There's a conflict of interest for us to try to make you

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really like us, and I don't want to be likable.

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I'm not a dislikable guy, but that's not the purpose of anything

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that we do.

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Our purpose is to convey information.

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And a lot of people take that the wrong way.

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And some people take it the right way.

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Nothing we can do about it.

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It's personally important to me to play with my cards face up

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on all these things.

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I I like doing this stuff on hard mode.

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Like saying here's everything wrong with me personally, here's everything weak about

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this position, and it still survives.

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You can put the least favorable light on some of the things

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that we say and it's still true.

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I'm fine with that because that's a convincing argument.

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Even if you hate me.

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It's funny, there are a lot of people on X that I

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see who block me and don't like me and don't like Corey

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and don't like Stone Choir who are now quoting us indirectly, but

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they're quoting people who are saying exactly the things that we're saying.

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And they're saying things that made them hate us and block us

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in the first place, and yet now they agree.

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That's a natural part of persuasion is that sometimes you make a

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dent and people just sort of move on with their lives and

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they forget where they got it.

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So the person who has been slandered can never hope to recover

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his name.

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And the person who is concealing that he has some purpose is

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doing something dishonest by not disclosing those things.

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So as we go through this today, we just want people to

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understand that it's important to detect when there's a conflict.

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to detect what an interest is.

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And then just to be rational about, well, I'll take the facts

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from that guy.

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And that's why we're episodes or you know we make arguments.

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They're based around facts.

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And so we present, here's a package deal, take it or leave

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it, pick it apart, go discuss it amongst yourselves, and then we're

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not a part of it.

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We're not trying to invite ourselves into your lives or anything.

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It's just this is important.

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Here's something that you can do with it.

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When you look at conflict of interest or conflicted interest, interest in

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this context that we're talking about is fundamentally about a person's purpose,

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a person's agenda, their values, their things that they derive some good

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from versus suffering some harm for.

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So, you know, example would be income, livelihood, reputation.

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Each of us has a natural interest in making money, having income,

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being able to eat, being able to clothe and feed and house

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yourself, and not being hated by your friends and neighbors, having a

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reputation that's a good reputation.

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That's a natural interest.

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There's nothing wrong or perverted about that.

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There's nothing untoward.

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It's just this is mine.

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Yeah, we talked about that in the jealousy episode.

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You have things that are yours, yours particularly and uniquely and exclusively.

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Jealousy is about that which is exclusively yours.

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Your wife and your children are exclusively yours.

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They don't belong to anyone else.

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Not to the state, not to your neighbor, not to anybody else

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but you.

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That's an interest.

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So there's nothing bad about having an interest.

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The conflict arises when two interests that you hold, whether or not

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you hold them equally, are themselves in opposition.

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And that's where the conflict comes in.

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So say for example, you know, you have a wife and you

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have kids and you have your stuff, your life, and

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you get some new job offer that's gonna be a lot more

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money, but it's gonna involve moving, disrupting everything, making life harder on

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everybody else, but it's a really good job opportunity.

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If you were single, you'd be gone in a second.

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It wouldn't even think twice about leaving.

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But the conflict is that well, your whole family is gonna be

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along for the ride.

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And so, you know, it it's not a bad situation.

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It's just you have to choose between potentially competing things that you're

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gonna have to pick a winner.

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You're gonna have to pick do I inconvenience my family, my children,

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all their lives for something that's going to be good for me

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professionally. Now the benefit of being a father and a husband is

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that generally those things that benefit you will also at least trickle

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down and benefit your family.

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So that's not necessarily a hard sell, but there's still a conflict

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there. The thing that is a single guy would be just brain

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dead simple gets a lot more complicated when someone else might be

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injured somehow by it.

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Not a serious injury, but you know, having to move kids and

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uproot your home and pack and like it's stressful, it's hard.

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It's unpleasant.

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Especially once kids are in school.

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That's really difficult socially.

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I know I did it seven times.

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So that's not a desirable outcome.

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Maybe the job is worth it, especially if it, you know, it's

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opening new career horizons that's gonna be good for the whole family.

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That's a conflict of interest.

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There's nothing bad there.

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It's not like you have two terrible options, you have two good

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options, and you have to weigh them and understand them.

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The reason for pointing out the things like that, and that's a

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very trivial example, and it's an internal one, is that those conflicts

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have to be resolved and they're going to be resolved by one

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winning and one losing.

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Now hopefully the winner is a big winner and the losers loser

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in a very small way.

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In the case of a job opportunity, sure, it's mild inconvenience for

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your kids, but you know, maybe if you're blessed, they're going to

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be closer to your extended family, you're going to be making a

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lot more money, so it's gonna be able to go to college

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or whatever.

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It's gonna be a huge net win with a tiny bit of

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downside. So it's it's entirely possible to resolve a conflict of interest

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without sin, without any big blow-up or disaster.

00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:27.920
But it's important to acknowledge that there's one there.

00:13:27.920 --> 00:13:31.680
The wrong approach would be to deny that there's any conflict of

00:13:31.680 --> 00:13:32.560
interest there at all.

00:13:32.560 --> 00:13:35.360
It's like, oh, I can make twice as much money doing something

00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:37.120
that I like a whole lot more and it's gonna be really

00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:37.920
good for me.

00:13:37.920 --> 00:13:39.200
Family, we're moving.

00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:45.120
If you completely disregard the downsides to your family, however small relatively,

00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:46.160
you're doing something wrong.

00:13:46.160 --> 00:13:49.360
You're not acknowledging that there's competing interests there.

00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:50.720
And those are your interests too.

00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:53.600
Because the welfare and the happiness of your wife and your children

00:13:53.760 --> 00:13:56.320
are also very important things to you.

00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:00.320
In the long run, they're more important than a job opportunity.

00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.360
But the thing is, you know, with a job opportunity in particular,

00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:05.600
they're usually gonna be somewhat aligned.

00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:07.760
You know, unless you're in a situation where you're gonna make twice

00:14:07.760 --> 00:14:11.120
as much money 'cause you're gonna work twice as long, then maybe

00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:13.760
that would be something would change the equation.

00:14:13.760 --> 00:14:16.240
There the conflict might be it's not worth it.

00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:18.400
I'm never gonna see my kids again if I do this.

00:14:18.400 --> 00:14:21.600
Sure we'll be richer, we'll have a nicer house, but it's not

00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:25.200
worth missing out on seeing my own children grow up.

00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:29.680
So the purpose of acknowledging conflicts of interest exist is just to

00:14:29.680 --> 00:14:31.680
be honest about the situation.

00:14:31.680 --> 00:14:34.720
And then when we extrapolate that to when it's a third party

00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:37.600
that's doing something, then it gets really tricky because you have to

00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.200
weigh in mentally on what somebody else's motivations are.

00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.960
You have to be looking from afar at someone who's internally conflicted

00:14:45.040 --> 00:14:46.640
and maybe they're concealing it.

00:14:46.640 --> 00:14:50.960
And if you don't recognize what their internal conflict is, you're just

00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.320
gonna list whatever they're saying, not realizing that they have motives to

00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:58.640
say something for one interest that may be actually harming the other

00:14:58.640 --> 00:15:01.760
interest. And maybe you are more invested in the other interest.

00:15:01.760 --> 00:15:04.960
The thing that they're not worried about is the one that actually

00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:06.320
applies to applies to you.

00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.440
And that's why it's a relevant conversation for all of us, because

00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.920
when we're all talking about these things publicly, to just leave that

00:15:13.920 --> 00:15:15.680
stuff out creates a mess.

00:15:15.680 --> 00:15:19.360
It creates a situation where you have some voice in your ear

00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:22.400
telling you to say or do or believe or act in some

00:15:22.400 --> 00:15:25.520
certain way, and they've not told you the truth about why they're

00:15:25.520 --> 00:15:26.320
telling you.

00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.240
It's simply a question of disclosure.

00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.200
Because if they did tell you what they cared about, what their

00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.840
competing motivations were, maybe you wouldn't listen at all.

00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:37.040
And in fact, in some cases, you absolutely should not.

00:15:37.040 --> 00:15:41.040
There are some people for certain situations, certain topics, where you should

00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:42.800
not listen to them because they're conflicted.

00:15:42.800 --> 00:15:45.440
And it doesn't mean they're bad, doesn't mean they're sinful or evil.

00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.800
It just means that they have an internal problem to resolve and

00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:53.280
that's for them, but they can't participate in the conversation that we're

00:15:53.280 --> 00:15:56.400
having here.

00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:59.920
So here at the outset of this episode, I want to note

00:15:59.920 --> 00:16:05.520
that we are not going to be addressing specific sections of scripture

00:16:05.520 --> 00:16:08.560
in this episode.

00:16:08.560 --> 00:16:12.560
I know that some of you want us to cite a verse

00:16:12.560 --> 00:16:14.880
for absolutely everything we say.

00:16:14.880 --> 00:16:19.840
This is a tendency that has become very common in the modern

00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:23.520
church, and it's simply not Christian.

00:16:23.520 --> 00:16:27.360
It's not rational, but it's also not Christian.

00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:33.600
Scripture does not speak to every single issue of human life.

00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:36.080
Because that's not the point of Scripture.

00:16:36.400 --> 00:16:41.280
In so far as Scripture addresses a topic, it is absolutely correct,

00:16:41.280 --> 00:16:44.960
and it is binding on the Christian, assuming, of course, it's not

00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:46.720
just a narrative passage of Scripture.

00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:51.680
There are sections of Scripture that simply relay history without passing judgment

00:16:51.760 --> 00:16:54.080
at least explicitly on it.

00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.840
But those parts that speak about morality and matters like that are

00:16:57.920 --> 00:17:02.080
of course absolutely true and binding.

00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:06.080
And to some degree scripture does speak on this issue in a

00:17:06.080 --> 00:17:07.280
tangential way.

00:17:07.280 --> 00:17:10.400
And we've gone over that in previous episodes, because of course we've

00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:14.560
addressed the issues of speaking the truth, we've addressed the issue of

00:17:14.560 --> 00:17:16.960
lying, various things related to that.

00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:20.960
And so scripture does speak on tangential issues, and we've addressed those.

00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:24.240
You can go back and listen to those episodes, in particular the

00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.600
one on truth and lies.

00:17:27.600 --> 00:17:31.760
But that's not exactly what we're addressing in this episode.

00:17:31.760 --> 00:17:37.680
Because we are not necessarily addressing instances in which men are lying,

00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:40.000
in which they are distorting the truth.

00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:44.240
What we're addressing as well as emphasized there in the opening is

00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:49.200
there are instances in which a man may have competing interests and

00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:52.480
he may speak in a certain way, even if it is not

00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:57.280
untruthful, the That may very well be biased in some way.

00:17:57.280 --> 00:18:00.160
And so you have to take that into account, and that leads

00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.040
into another point that I want to make here.

00:18:03.040 --> 00:18:05.520
This is a matter of wisdom.

00:18:05.520 --> 00:18:07.360
Unavoidably so.

00:18:07.360 --> 00:18:11.200
This is not one of those instances where we can give you

00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.840
a bunch of black letter law as it were.

00:18:13.840 --> 00:18:17.280
We can't give you a hierarchy of rules and you simply run

00:18:17.280 --> 00:18:21.600
down this list and then you come to an absolute conclusion on

00:18:21.600 --> 00:18:24.080
the matter.

00:18:24.080 --> 00:18:28.400
That's not how life works in many things.

00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:33.280
And again to emphasize, scripture does not speak explicitly on every single

00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:38.080
issue. Before we started recording we were talking about the fact that

00:18:38.080 --> 00:18:40.720
Scripture doesn't really address the issue of say cooking.

00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:41.680
There are others as well.

00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.000
Scripture doesn't tell you exactly what to do with your wife on

00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:45.760
your wedding night.

00:18:45.760 --> 00:18:48.720
But there are matters that are not addressed, they are left to

00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:52.720
human wisdom, because God has given us wisdom.

00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:54.320
That is one of the gifts of God.

00:18:54.320 --> 00:18:58.560
It is given unequally, of course, but it is given to all

00:18:58.560 --> 00:19:00.720
men, and insofar as you've been given a measure of

00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:06.400
that, it is incumbent on you to exercise it, particularly in matters

00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:08.320
like this.

00:19:08.320 --> 00:19:12.240
And so when you're assessing how you How you should take the

00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:16.800
statements of another man, there are certain things that come into play.

00:19:16.800 --> 00:19:20.880
One of those is whether or not he has an interest in

00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.440
what he is saying.

00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:27.040
Now, of course, I'm not speaking of just the general interest in

00:19:27.040 --> 00:19:30.240
being right, because you could very well be dealing with someone who's

00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.760
just argumentative and doing it for the sake of arguing.

00:19:33.760 --> 00:19:38.480
But beyond that interest in being right or winning the argument, whatever

00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:39.920
it happens to be.

00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.600
The man could be speaking in a completely objective fashion.

00:19:43.600 --> 00:19:46.560
It could be completely academic, disinterested.

00:19:46.560 --> 00:19:50.080
The only desire is to arrive at the truth of the matter,

00:19:50.080 --> 00:19:56.240
say a purely philosophical conversation which all parties are being forthright, being

00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.400
entirely honest.

00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.680
But by and large that's not how human beings operate.

00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.600
This is, to some degree, touching at the edges, as it were,

00:20:07.600 --> 00:20:10.400
of the enlightenment, which we will eventually get to do.

00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.680
We will eventually get to addressing the enlightenment.

00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:16.080
But men are not tabla rasa.

00:20:16.080 --> 00:20:17.680
You're not a blank slate.

00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:21.360
You don't come into this world and you certainly don't become an

00:20:21.360 --> 00:20:28.320
actual adult human being without having a background, without having certain interests.

00:20:28.320 --> 00:20:31.680
And some of those interests are going to play into how you

00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:36.560
present your arguments, how you choose the words you use to present

00:20:36.560 --> 00:20:41.200
those arguments, for instance, and that should be taken into account by

00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:44.240
other men when they hear your arguments.

00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:48.320
Again, as Wo said, that's not to say that these men are

00:20:48.320 --> 00:20:53.200
necessarily being dishonest or misleading, although that can certainly come into play

00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:59.920
here. Because a man can have conflicted or conflicting interests without being

00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:02.080
dishonest about it.

00:21:02.080 --> 00:21:04.640
Part of this is, of course, a matter of disclosure.

00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.600
Disclosures are by and large a good thing.

00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:10.800
We have them up and down our legal and our social system

00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:13.520
for very good reason.

00:21:13.520 --> 00:21:18.160
If you have a financial interest in something, and you are in

00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:23.520
a position to enact, say, some regulation or some law with regard

00:21:23.840 --> 00:21:28.960
to that financial interest, it is important that you disclose that, because

00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:32.800
it should be taken into account that you have this interest.

00:21:32.800 --> 00:21:35.600
It's one of the reasons that sometimes we use what's called a

00:21:35.600 --> 00:21:39.760
blind trust, in order to distance a man from having these sorts

00:21:39.760 --> 00:21:41.120
of conflicts.

00:21:41.120 --> 00:21:46.320
Because for instance, if you know all of your financial positions, and

00:21:46.320 --> 00:21:50.800
you are the lawmaker, or you are the regulator, then you do

00:21:50.800 --> 00:21:52.960
have a conflict of interest.

00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:56.320
And the reason that you have that conflict is because you know

00:21:56.320 --> 00:22:00.800
in the back of your mind, if I do this thing that

00:22:00.800 --> 00:22:04.880
my job requires me to do, that objectively I need to do,

00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:07.920
I am going to harm my financial position.

00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:12.240
And as Wo said, that's not necessarily a bad consideration, because as

00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:14.400
a man, you have a duty to care for your family.

00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:16.560
You have a duty to care for yourself as well.

00:22:16.560 --> 00:22:19.360
But you have a duty to care for your wife and your

00:22:19.360 --> 00:22:23.440
children. And so having an interest in that is not in and

00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:26.320
of itself bad.

00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.560
But when you have that conflict, you are going to have to

00:22:30.560 --> 00:22:34.960
choose. In some cases, obviously, the choice is easier than in others.

00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.640
If you are a regulator, you are supposed to choose the objective

00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:42.000
path. Because you are supposed to do what is in this case

00:22:42.320 --> 00:22:46.880
right. And so you can't side with your own financial interest because

00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:48.960
it is a financial interest.

00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:53.120
But the disclosure, on the one hand, helps to guard against that

00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:57.680
because it gives other men information necessary to assess what you are

00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:02.000
doing. On the other hand, the instrument of a blind trust, how

00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:06.080
that works for those who aren't aware, is the is that your

00:23:06.080 --> 00:23:10.480
financial positions are put into a trust that is then managed by

00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:14.720
another man or entity, and you do not know your own financial

00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.400
positions. You know that you have a certain amount of money and

00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.520
you can look at the performance numbers, but you don't know, for

00:23:21.520 --> 00:23:25.680
instance, that you are holding Apple stock or Microsoft stock or whatever

00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:26.800
it happens to be.

00:23:26.800 --> 00:23:32.000
And so if you are a regulator, regulating those companies, you don't

00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.800
have that conflict of interest because you don't know.

00:23:34.800 --> 00:23:38.160
You can't have the bias because you don't know that you hold

00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:40.560
that specific financial position.

00:23:40.560 --> 00:23:43.920
It's an instrument we use in order to address this issue

00:23:45.840 --> 00:23:50.240
This is also something that comes up obviously all over the legal

00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:54.640
system. In a particular way, it comes up with regard to witnesses

00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.680
in the civil courts and also in the criminal courts.

00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:02.480
It's what's called impeachment, not in the sort of grand sense of

00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.000
removing a man from office, for instance, the president, but in the

00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.440
sense of impeaching the testimony of a witness, which is to say,

00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:15.840
casting doubt on what he has said, or at least giving the

00:24:15.840 --> 00:24:21.520
jury, the finder of fact, information with regard to that testimony.

00:24:21.520 --> 00:24:24.400
There are a number of ways this is done in the civil

00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:30.320
courts. Primarily it would be to introduce factual evidence that proves a

00:24:30.320 --> 00:24:35.600
contradiction, introducing a prior inconsistent statement the witness has said something in

00:24:35.600 --> 00:24:38.080
the past that is not That is inconsistent with what he has

00:24:38.080 --> 00:24:39.920
said on the stand.

00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:44.480
In some limited instances you can introduce character evidence, which is basically

00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:46.960
saying this man is a liar, you shouldn't trust him.

00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:48.000
That's very limited.

00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:49.120
The rules are complicated.

00:24:49.120 --> 00:24:52.320
It's not the issue for today.

00:24:52.320 --> 00:24:54.160
And the other one is bias.

00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:56.080
Those are the four big ones.

00:24:56.080 --> 00:24:59.040
Bias is the one we're really dealing with here.

00:24:59.040 --> 00:25:01.760
And bias is not necessarily a bad thing.

00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:06.320
When you hear the word bias, you're probably naturally inclined to think,

00:25:06.320 --> 00:25:07.680
oh, that's bad.

00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:09.280
Bias is something you shouldn't have.

00:25:09.280 --> 00:25:10.400
You should be unbiased.

00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:11.280
You should be objective.

00:25:11.280 --> 00:25:13.200
No, you shouldn't be.

00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:14.400
Not always.

00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.280
In some cases, yes, absolutely you should be objective.

00:25:17.280 --> 00:25:21.280
If you are a judge, you are required by your office to

00:25:21.280 --> 00:25:22.720
be objective.

00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:27.040
If you are a husband, you are required by your office to

00:25:27.040 --> 00:25:31.120
be biased in favor of your wife.

00:25:31.120 --> 00:25:33.280
Bias is not always bad.

00:25:33.280 --> 00:25:36.000
Bias is one way of speaking about duty.

00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:40.320
If you have a duty to someone or something, that duty, generally

00:25:40.320 --> 00:25:44.560
speaking, is to be biased in favor of that person or thing.

00:25:44.560 --> 00:25:48.480
And so bias by itself is a neutral term.

00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:53.360
In this context, do not think of bias as having a moral

00:25:53.360 --> 00:25:58.320
slant, as it were, in either direction, because depending on the specific

00:25:58.320 --> 00:26:01.840
facts, it can be positive or negative.

00:26:01.840 --> 00:26:06.160
If you have a bias against something when you should not, then

00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:07.280
that is negative.

00:26:07.280 --> 00:26:10.800
If you have a bias for something when you should, then that

00:26:10.800 --> 00:26:11.680
is positive.

00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:14.720
There is a difference between those two, and it's important to note

00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:21.920
that. And so with regard to interests, a man can have

00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:25.120
either a good interest or a bad interest, because of course you

00:26:25.120 --> 00:26:29.840
can be in the negative sense biased against something.

00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:33.440
But these interests should be taken into account.

00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:36.800
It does not mean, as Wo said in his opening, that a

00:26:36.800 --> 00:26:39.120
man cannot be trusted.

00:26:39.120 --> 00:26:42.000
Because every man has interests.

00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:44.480
Every man has biases.

00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:45.440
There is no such thing as

00:26:46.320 --> 00:26:49.120
a man who is free from all these things, because that wouldn't

00:26:49.040 --> 00:26:51.600
be a man, that'd be a machine.

00:26:51.600 --> 00:26:55.520
And even then, the machine probably has biases programmed into it by

00:26:55.840 --> 00:27:02.800
men. It's not that because a man has an interest that you

00:27:02.800 --> 00:27:04.400
cannot trust him.

00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:08.320
It is that you have to take that into your calculation of

00:27:08.320 --> 00:27:10.960
how you weigh what he has said.

00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:13.440
And again, that is a matter of wisdom.

00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:17.360
And in some cases, it is a matter of excluding him from

00:27:17.360 --> 00:27:19.200
the discussion.

00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.320
Now, some are going to think you can't possibly do that.

00:27:22.320 --> 00:27:24.800
Every man has to have his seat at the table, everyone has

00:27:24.800 --> 00:27:29.200
to be heard and that's simply not how any of this works.

00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:31.440
It's certainly not how it works in the courts.

00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:35.600
We don't call every single person who is at all relevant to

00:27:35.600 --> 00:27:38.240
the particular matter to be a witness.

00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:41.280
That would be burdensome to the point where nothing would ever function,

00:27:41.280 --> 00:27:45.520
as little as it functions at present anyway.

00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:49.200
You can't give everyone a seat at the table to be heard

00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:54.080
on every issue, and some men, by virtue of their set of

00:27:54.080 --> 00:28:00.560
interests should not be heard, because they have a bias that is

00:28:00.560 --> 00:28:03.520
harmful to the discussion.

00:28:03.520 --> 00:28:09.760
This is not necessarily just to defend the discussion itself, just to

00:28:09.760 --> 00:28:13.840
defend the attempt to arrive at the correct conclusion, to arrive at

00:28:13.840 --> 00:28:14.320
the truth.

00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:17.120
That should always be the goal here, of course.

00:28:17.120 --> 00:28:21.360
Insofar as there is an actual truth in play, which there usually

00:28:21.360 --> 00:28:25.680
is, it is also to protect the man who has the conflict

00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:27.200
of interest.

00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:30.880
And the way in which he is protected by being excluded from

00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:31.520
the discussion

00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:35.440
is that he doesn't have to choose.

00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:38.800
By and large we should endeavor never to put a man in

00:28:38.800 --> 00:28:43.760
a position where he has to choose between his family or his

00:28:43.760 --> 00:28:49.280
nation, or his family or his church, or his financial interests or

00:28:49.280 --> 00:28:53.600
the truth, it is better to insulate that man to shield him

00:28:53.600 --> 00:28:57.680
from having to make that choice Because if you put a man,

00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:02.480
say, in a position, to give an extreme example, where he has

00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:07.440
to choose a course with regard to regulating an industry, and if

00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:13.200
he chooses the course that is objectively correct, he destroys his financial

00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:18.560
position, or he can act corruptly and make himself a great deal

00:29:18.560 --> 00:29:19.120
of money.

00:29:19.120 --> 00:29:22.960
You should not put a man in that in that position.

00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.280
It is one of the reasons, again, that we use things like

00:29:25.280 --> 00:29:28.800
a blind trust, because we don't want to put a man in

00:29:28.800 --> 00:29:32.960
a position where he has this conflict of interest.

00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:36.000
By and large, because very few men are going to make the

00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:39.600
right choice, but also because you simply don't want to do that

00:29:39.600 --> 00:29:40.320
to another man.

00:29:40.320 --> 00:29:43.600
As a Christian, you should not want to put someone in that

00:29:43.600 --> 00:29:48.320
position. If you find yourself in that position, it is morally incumbent

00:29:48.320 --> 00:29:50.960
on you to do the right thing.

00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:54.400
But better by far if you are simply not put in that

00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:58.720
position. And so there is this twofold interest in excluding certain men

00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.520
from certain discussions.

00:30:01.520 --> 00:30:04.800
If a man has that conflict of interest, you protect him by

00:30:04.800 --> 00:30:08.560
excluding him, but you also on the other hand, the other side

00:30:08.560 --> 00:30:13.360
of the coin, you defend the discussion itself by excluding those who

00:30:13.360 --> 00:30:16.880
have this conflict of interest.

00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:22.080
This helps to move the discussion along, as it were, and it

00:30:22.080 --> 00:30:25.360
also makes it so there's less of a burden with regard to

00:30:25.360 --> 00:30:29.600
assessing the individuals who are speaking to the issue.

00:30:29.600 --> 00:30:32.960
Because if you have a room full of men who are heavily

00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:37.840
conflicted in their interests, that's going to be very difficult as a

00:30:37.840 --> 00:30:41.600
question of wisdom to assess what each man is saying with regard

00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:43.760
to the discussion.

00:30:43.760 --> 00:30:47.840
If you have men who can be more objective because they don't

00:30:47.760 --> 00:30:53.280
have this conflict, it makes it much easier to assess the discussion.

00:30:53.280 --> 00:30:58.560
You're not wronging or harming the man who is not included.

00:30:58.560 --> 00:31:01.360
In fact, like I have said, you are protecting him in some

00:31:01.360 --> 00:31:05.360
ways. What you are doing is ensuring that you arrive at a

00:31:05.360 --> 00:31:11.120
proper conclusion by excluding those who have this conflict.

00:31:11.120 --> 00:31:14.720
It's not always possible, of course, to exclude those who have a

00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:21.120
conflict of interest, because again, every man has a collection of interests.

00:31:21.120 --> 00:31:23.440
Not all of them are compatible.

00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:25.760
Some of them conflict naturally.

00:31:25.760 --> 00:31:28.240
That is simply part of this life.

00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:30.080
You have this every single day.

00:31:30.080 --> 00:31:32.720
You have a certain number of hours in the day, and you

00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.000
have a certain number of things you'd like to get done, there's

00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:40.800
a conflict there, because often, basically always, you can't get done everything

00:31:40.800 --> 00:31:43.600
you would like to get done in a given day.

00:31:43.600 --> 00:31:47.280
Certainly not everything you'd like to get done on a grander scale,

00:31:47.280 --> 00:31:48.640
and so you have to choose.

00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.240
There is a conflict of your interests with regard to how you

00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:54.080
spend your time.

00:31:54.080 --> 00:31:59.440
In that case, probably not a particularly harmful outcome regardless of which

00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:00.640
one you choose.

00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:03.440
Could be, usually isn't.

00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:08.800
When we are speaking about issues on the grander scale, political questions,

00:32:08.800 --> 00:32:13.120
and things like that, the There is a great deal of potential

00:32:13.120 --> 00:32:17.280
harm if we do not arrive at a correct conclusion.

00:32:17.280 --> 00:32:23.200
And so including those who have this conflict of interest harms what

00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:30.000
is essentially the greater good, harms this more important outcome.

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:33.360
And we have to take that into account.

00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:37.760
And so again, it's not a matter of saying that those who

00:32:37.760 --> 00:32:42.080
have this conflict of interests are necessarily going to lie.

00:32:42.080 --> 00:32:46.880
We're not saying anyone is necessarily a liar.

00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:52.240
If you have a financial position, a financial interest, in the outcome

00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:57.120
of a decision, it does not mean necessarily that you will choose

00:32:57.120 --> 00:33:00.880
to act, you will choose to decide in favor of your financial

00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:05.920
interests. If what is right actually harms your financial interests, you are

00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.920
in fact still free to make that right choice, but you have

00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:12.400
that conflict.

00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:16.240
And so that has to be taken into account by other men.

00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:20.320
And putting you in that position does actually cause you a certain

00:33:20.320 --> 00:33:26.000
kind of harm because it's forcing you to choose between legitimate interests.

00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.160
And we're talking about legitimate interests here.

00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:32.720
We're not talking in this episode about those who are malicious, about

00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:34.960
those who are seeking to cause harm.

00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:38.000
And those are certainly men who are out there.

00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:39.360
That is also a possibility.

00:33:39.360 --> 00:33:42.800
And again, a matter of wisdom You have to assess those men.

00:33:42.800 --> 00:33:46.240
You have to assess the motives of those who are engaged in

00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:49.120
the discussion.

00:33:49.120 --> 00:33:52.960
And part of the way that you can assess those motives is

00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.760
whether or not men make disclosures.

00:33:55.760 --> 00:34:00.480
Generally speaking, the men who are willing to come forward and make

00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:04.800
disclosures with regard to their interests, whether it's a financial position or

00:34:04.800 --> 00:34:09.920
a personal stake Whatever it happens to be, by and large those

00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:14.880
men should generally be trusted more because they have made the necessary

00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:17.360
or at least the helpful disclosures.

00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:20.160
They are playing with their cards face up.

00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:24.960
Which in this sort of situation, in these matters, that is vitally

00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:30.320
important. If I were, again, to use the obvious example, if I

00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:37.520
were regulating a given industry, I I would be legally speaking, probably

00:34:37.520 --> 00:34:42.000
required, but I would be morally bound to a certain degree to

00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:46.880
disclose my financial interests in the companies I would be regulating.

00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:50.720
Because if I didn't do that, it would be seen as at

00:34:50.720 --> 00:34:55.840
the very least suspicious and probably dishonest.

00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:00.800
The same thing is true with regard to political discussions or even

00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:02.800
religious discussions.

00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:08.880
Men should disclose their interest in the outcome, their interest with regard

00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.560
to the statements they are making It's one of the reasons that

00:35:12.560 --> 00:35:15.680
Woe and I do not hide that we're Lutheran.

00:35:15.680 --> 00:35:19.040
We are going to let you know up front that we are

00:35:19.040 --> 00:35:24.000
Lutheran, we are going to make arguments from that Lutheran background, we

00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:28.000
are going to make arguments that are consonant with what we believe

00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.520
as Lutherans.

00:35:29.520 --> 00:35:33.360
Now we're not saying that we make these arguments because we are

00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:40.240
Lutheran. Rather, we are Lutheran because we believe that Lutheranism is consistent

00:35:40.240 --> 00:35:44.240
with Scripture, is consistent with the arguments that we are making, the

00:35:44.240 --> 00:35:46.320
things that we are advancing.

00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:50.160
But we let you know up front that we're Lutheran because it's

00:35:50.160 --> 00:35:51.600
a form of disclosure.

00:35:51.600 --> 00:35:54.080
We're not going to hide that from you.

00:35:54.080 --> 00:35:57.600
We're going to let you know that this is what we believe.

00:35:57.600 --> 00:36:01.200
We are going to make certain arguments because we believe that those

00:36:01.200 --> 00:36:04.960
arguments are consonant with what we believe because we believe all of

00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.240
this is consistent with scripture.

00:36:08.240 --> 00:36:10.560
That is a form of disclosure.

00:36:10.560 --> 00:36:13.760
Similar to the form of disclosure that you would give in the

00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:17.360
financial context with regard to stock positions.

00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:19.200
I'm regulating Apple.

00:36:19.200 --> 00:36:22.080
I own ten thousand shares in Apple.

00:36:22.080 --> 00:36:23.920
That's relevant.

00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:28.720
These are things that you have to tell the relevant audience, whether

00:36:28.720 --> 00:36:32.480
it's the world or a podcast audience, or the other men at

00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:37.200
the discussion table, it's important to have these things on the table

00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:40.800
so that other men can make an accurate wisdom call.

00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:44.000
It doesn't mean that you're a liar because you have this conflict

00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.120
of interests.

00:36:45.120 --> 00:36:49.600
It means that you have that conflict, and other men recognize that

00:36:49.600 --> 00:36:52.640
because they have conflicts as well.

00:36:52.640 --> 00:36:56.480
Just because you have this set of things pulling you in different

00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:59.120
directions does not mean that you will lie.

00:36:59.120 --> 00:37:02.400
It does not mean you will mislead or deceive or any of

00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:03.840
these other things.

00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:07.040
It just means that you have to make that decision.

00:37:07.040 --> 00:37:11.680
And so it may be necessary to exclude you from the discussion,

00:37:11.680 --> 00:37:15.360
to avoid putting you in the position where you have to choose,

00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:18.560
to avoid putting you in the position where you may very well

00:37:18.560 --> 00:37:22.960
be strongly incentivized to mislead, to deceive, to lie.

00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:27.600
It is better from a Christian standpoint to exclude men from those

00:37:27.600 --> 00:37:31.200
discussions and not put them in a position where they are very

00:37:31.200 --> 00:37:33.600
tempted to sin.

00:37:33.600 --> 00:37:36.000
And again it's not just because Because

00:37:37.040 --> 00:37:39.600
of the protection of the discussion itself.

00:37:39.600 --> 00:37:42.720
It is also for the protection of that man.

00:37:42.720 --> 00:37:47.280
And these are somewhat abstract discussions to a certain degree.

00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:50.560
I've given some concrete examples and we'll go through some more as

00:37:50.560 --> 00:37:53.440
we continue along in this episode.

00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:55.920
But this is not an abstract matter.

00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:58.880
This is a very concrete everyday matter.

00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:02.320
This is something that we do constantly in our lives.

00:38:03.040 --> 00:38:06.960
We know that individuals have biases, have interests.

00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:08.960
We know that those things conflict.

00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:11.920
We know that a man may be arguing for something because he

00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:15.120
has a stake in it, and that's not always wrong.

00:38:15.120 --> 00:38:19.280
If you are arguing for something that will help your family, you

00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:20.880
are doing your duty.

00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:25.440
But just because you are doing a particular duty, fulfilling a particular

00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:29.760
duty, does not mean that you are suited to the discussion in

00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:34.000
question, and it may very well mean that you should make some

00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:38.160
sort of disclosure with regard to your interest, with regard to your

00:38:38.160 --> 00:38:41.120
position as well And why you are advancing the thing you are

00:38:41.120 --> 00:38:45.200
advancing. As I explained earlier, this is something we do in the

00:38:45.200 --> 00:38:50.960
civil courts because we recognize that a witness probably has an interest

00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:52.640
in what he is saying.

00:38:52.640 --> 00:38:55.760
He may have an interest because he was involved in the crime.

00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:56.880
That's relevant.

00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:00.000
He may have an interest because the outcome of the case affects

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:01.200
his bottom line.

00:39:01.200 --> 00:39:02.720
That's relevant.

00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:07.040
All of these things have to be taken into consideration because this

00:39:07.040 --> 00:39:11.440
is a wisdom call, and it is unavoidably so.

00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:15.760
There are certain episodes where yes, we can give you a black

00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:19.840
and white list of rules, as it were, we can say, if

00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:21.440
this, then that.

00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:24.320
This is not one of those episodes.

00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:29.520
Because again, just because a man has an interest does not mean

00:39:29.520 --> 00:39:33.280
he is going to act in a way that is wrongful or

00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:36.560
immoral or deceitful or anything like that.

00:39:36.560 --> 00:39:40.160
It just means that it is something you have to take into

00:39:40.160 --> 00:39:44.640
account when you are making this assessment pursuing Pursuant to the measure

00:39:44.640 --> 00:39:48.960
of wisdom that God has given you.

00:39:49.680 --> 00:39:54.400
The reason for giving those financial examples is that one it's the

00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:57.520
most common one that we One that we see out in public

00:39:57.520 --> 00:39:59.840
being called a conflict of interest.

00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:03.600
But it's also because financial examples are quantifiable.

00:40:03.600 --> 00:40:07.600
You understand that if you have a stake in something and you

00:40:07.600 --> 00:40:12.080
make some decision that's going to harm that business interest, you jeopardize,

00:40:12.080 --> 00:40:13.840
maybe you lose the stake.

00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:20.080
So they're quantifiable losses if your competing interests are such that you

00:40:20.080 --> 00:40:23.680
end up choosing against whatever is going to cause you to lose

00:40:23.680 --> 00:40:24.880
your money.

00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:28.160
Most of the problems that we are dealing with are not financial

00:40:28.160 --> 00:40:28.720
at all.

00:40:28.720 --> 00:40:34.240
They're matters of doctrine, they're matters of politics, they're matters of policy

00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:36.000
and procedure.

00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:38.720
How do we operate a society?

00:40:38.720 --> 00:40:40.080
How do we operate a church?

00:40:40.080 --> 00:40:42.080
How do we operate a DM group?

00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:44.480
Pick any sphere you want.

00:40:44.720 --> 00:40:47.120
You have to decide as a group of men who are gathered

00:40:47.120 --> 00:40:49.440
together How do we make this thing work?

00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:53.920
And the men who should be participating in that need to have

00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:56.800
their cards face up for this example.

00:40:56.800 --> 00:41:01.360
Like you can't be hiding something when you're trying to establish, especially

00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:03.200
when you're trying to change things.

00:41:03.200 --> 00:41:06.240
And frankly, it's pretty much all we talk about on Stone Choir

00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:09.200
is here's something that's going wrong, and here's how we need to

00:41:09.200 --> 00:41:10.640
change it.

00:41:10.640 --> 00:41:15.920
One example that comes up occasionally where people will snipe at Corey

00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:18.640
and me and say, Don't listen to those guys.

00:41:18.640 --> 00:41:19.680
They're not married.

00:41:19.680 --> 00:41:21.040
They don't have kids.

00:41:21.040 --> 00:41:22.800
Woe's divorced.

00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:27.200
As though that means that we can't possibly have anything to say

00:41:27.200 --> 00:41:28.480
about anything.

00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:31.440
Now, I don't think that I disclosed I was divorced before I

00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:34.960
was doxxed, 'cause that's information that would have contributed, but I never

00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.840
concealed the fact that I wasn't married.

00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:39.920
And you know I didn't lie about anything.

00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:46.640
If Corey and I were saying you, dear listener, should also get

00:41:46.640 --> 00:41:51.200
divorced, you should not have kids, you shouldn't be married, that would

00:41:51.200 --> 00:41:54.320
be a very clear conflict of interest because that would be us

00:41:54.320 --> 00:42:00.000
justifying the things in our lives that have problems with them and

00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:02.480
saying you should be just like us, then we'll fit in.

00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:04.560
We'll be okay if we make you like us.

00:42:04.560 --> 00:42:07.360
And so here it's fine, you can do that.

00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:10.800
The conflict only goes one way, and we've never said anything like

00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:13.360
that. We've only ever said the opposite.

00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:17.520
We have only ever encouraged men to start families, to get married,

00:42:17.520 --> 00:42:20.960
to pick a girl they're gonna stay married to, not to get

00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:25.920
divorced, to do things that will ensure that you remain happily married.

00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:26.240
So

00:42:27.200 --> 00:42:31.120
the opposite of conflict of interest is basically to some degree throwing

00:42:31.120 --> 00:42:34.320
yourself under the bus, which is kind of what we're doing when

00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:35.680
we talk about those things.

00:42:35.680 --> 00:42:38.080
When I tell you that you should get married and have kids,

00:42:38.080 --> 00:42:40.320
which is absolutely true, like that's not original.

00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:41.520
That's God's order.

00:42:41.520 --> 00:42:43.200
That's the way everything is supposed to be.

00:42:43.200 --> 00:42:45.520
And it didn't used to be that you needed any sort of

00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:47.120
salesmanship for that.

00:42:47.120 --> 00:42:50.240
It's only in the last few generations in the West that we

00:42:50.240 --> 00:42:52.400
forgot how that was even supposed to work.

00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:54.240
And I did too in my personal life.

00:42:54.240 --> 00:42:57.360
And made mistakes that led to the point that I'm single, I

00:42:57.360 --> 00:42:59.760
don't have kids, and I'm divorced.

00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:04.480
Not something I would commend to anyone, but that's kind of the

00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:07.360
state of the world as it's falling apart, and it's a bad

00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:10.960
thing. I don't wish that on anyone.

00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:16.240
It's absurd to say don't listen to Stone Choir because they don't

00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:20.320
have kids, or that, you know, we don't have wives.

00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:23.760
It's an absurdity on its face because it doesn't communicate anything.

00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:25.200
There's no conflict there.

00:43:25.200 --> 00:43:28.720
It's really kind of a bizarre thing because a lot of you

00:43:28.720 --> 00:43:31.920
who are listening don't have wives, don't have kids.

00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:34.080
You dearly wish that you did.

00:43:34.080 --> 00:43:36.800
And I dearly wish that you do as well.

00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:38.800
I pray for that for everyone.

00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:42.080
There's no conflict there because I'm saying please don't turn out like

00:43:42.080 --> 00:43:46.080
me. The conflicted version of that story would be, no, it's fine

00:43:46.080 --> 00:43:46.960
to live like me.

00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:49.120
In fact, live like Andrew Tate.

00:43:49.120 --> 00:43:50.720
Andrew Tate is conflicted.

00:43:50.720 --> 00:43:54.720
He has a conflict of interest because he's living a debauched, worthless

00:43:54.720 --> 00:43:58.800
lifestyle that he then tries to sell to others and hold himself

00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:01.440
out as an example of turnout like me.

00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:04.160
There's a conflict of interest when you say, Hey, turn out like

00:44:04.160 --> 00:44:06.880
me. Simply, you know, forget selling anything.

00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:10.560
Just the fact that other people would approve of your choices, of

00:44:10.560 --> 00:44:13.760
your decisions, there's necessarily some upside there.

00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:17.120
Even if it's purely just the psychic benefit of people like me,

00:44:17.120 --> 00:44:20.720
the the warm fuzzy glow of being loved and beloved by complete

00:44:20.720 --> 00:44:23.840
strangers on the internet for whatever good that does.

00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:28.000
The conflict comes in when there are bad things about whatever's going

00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:30.400
on and you sell them anyway.

00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:34.240
So Cory and I don't really talk about child rearing, very little,

00:44:34.240 --> 00:44:38.080
apart from fathers teach your kids to do these things.

00:44:38.080 --> 00:44:40.560
Is that invalid because we don't have kids?

00:44:40.720 --> 00:44:42.400
No, that's absurd.

00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:46.480
Now, to pause for a second, what I'm doing here is a

00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:50.560
conflict of interest, because I'm telling you that we have not done

00:44:50.560 --> 00:44:54.400
anything wrong by discussing these things in the manner that we discuss

00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:59.040
them. That's necessarily conflicted because I have every incentive for you not

00:44:59.040 --> 00:45:00.240
to dislike me.

00:45:00.240 --> 00:45:03.200
Doesn't mean I'm lying, which is why I said in the intro

00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:07.120
someone who has a conflict of interest in a participation of a

00:45:07.120 --> 00:45:09.200
discussion can present fact.

00:45:09.200 --> 00:45:11.760
And so that's all I'm doing here is saying, look, here's the

00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:13.920
things that we say and here are the things that we don't

00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:16.960
say. If you can look at that and indict it and say

00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:20.080
that we are terrible wicked men for the things that we've said,

00:45:20.080 --> 00:45:23.200
fine. That's why I always say take it or leave it.

00:45:23.200 --> 00:45:27.120
I'm not trying to sell anything, certainly of myself, because I know

00:45:27.120 --> 00:45:28.480
that there's a conflict of interest.

00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:30.800
I'm not trying to make you like me.

00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:34.960
So when you look at what we say, and again, this this

00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:38.160
example, it's not to make people look at us, it's because it's

00:45:38.080 --> 00:45:40.880
a prime example of a conflict of interest.

00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:44.880
If we were saying don't have kids, don't get married, just live

00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:49.680
alone and do whatever stuff and then leave nothing behind, that would

00:45:49.680 --> 00:45:53.600
be a very clear conflict of interest because we would be saying

00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.920
you can be like us and that's okay.

00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.040
I don't think that.

00:45:57.040 --> 00:45:58.480
I don't wish that for anyone.

00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:01.760
If Assuming I outlive my parents, there won't even be anyone to

00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:02.720
bury me.

00:46:02.720 --> 00:46:03.920
That kind of stinks.

00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:05.280
I don't want that for anyone.

00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:06.560
I also don't worry about it.

00:46:06.560 --> 00:46:07.840
I don't care because I'll be dead.

00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:10.320
Like it's kind of embarrassing, I guess, but whatever.

00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:11.200
It's not my problem.

00:46:11.200 --> 00:46:12.320
I'll be in heaven.

00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:14.080
I don't want that for anybody else.

00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:18.000
I can be indifferent to my own state and yet earnestly desire

00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:20.000
that someone else not turn out like that.

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:21.360
But that's what you get.

00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:24.480
That's the cat lady trajectory is that.

00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:27.120
Dies alone with fifty cats and the cats eat her because there's

00:46:27.040 --> 00:46:28.480
nobody else around.

00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:29.920
That's a bad outcome.

00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:33.840
It is bad for society, it's bad for the individual, it's horrible.

00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.920
So the conflict of interest is if someone's pitching that terrible outcome

00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:40.160
and the world is full of people doing that.

00:46:40.160 --> 00:46:43.840
The world is full of Andrew Tate saying, be a debauched moron

00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:44.960
like me.

00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:46.640
We do the opposite.

00:46:46.640 --> 00:46:46.960
So

00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:51.280
you have to decide for yourself, can these guys participate in certain

00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:52.160
types of conversations?

00:46:52.160 --> 00:46:56.160
And there are lots of conversations that we deliberately exclude ourselves from.

00:46:56.160 --> 00:46:59.680
I've been involved in multiple groups that have had side dad chats.

00:46:59.680 --> 00:47:02.960
Never once have I wanted to insinuate myself into dad chat.

00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:05.680
Never mind I wouldn't be invited, but that makes perfect sense for

00:47:05.680 --> 00:47:08.480
me to be excluded because I don't have kids.

00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:11.920
I'm sure I'd have things to contribute, but I'm not being left

00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:13.600
out because it's dad chat.

00:47:13.600 --> 00:47:14.560
I'm not a dad.

00:47:14.560 --> 00:47:15.680
I don't get to do that.

00:47:15.680 --> 00:47:16.640
And that's fine.

00:47:16.640 --> 00:47:18.480
That's exactly the way it should be.

00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:22.080
Dads need a place to commiserate amongst themselves about the crazy things

00:47:22.080 --> 00:47:24.880
that their wives and their kids do, and enjoy that sort of

00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:30.640
camaraderie. That's only possible with other men who know the thing personally.

00:47:30.640 --> 00:47:33.360
It doesn't matter that I might have good opinions and wouldn't be

00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:34.400
disruptive or whatever.

00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:37.120
I don't belong in dad chat because I'm not a dad.

00:47:37.120 --> 00:47:39.280
The conflict of interest would be say, no, bring me in because

00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:41.680
I'm really smart and clever and I got lots of fun things

00:47:41.680 --> 00:47:43.840
to say you should listen to me too.

00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:46.720
Probably wouldn't make a mess, but it would still be stupid, because

00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:48.080
I don't belong.

00:47:48.080 --> 00:47:51.920
It's perfectly okay to identify people who don't belong and then exclude

00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:54.400
them on the basis of things about them.

00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:57.680
That's how civilization has always worked.

00:47:57.680 --> 00:48:00.400
We have gotten away from being able to do that.

00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:03.120
We've gotten away from being able to exclude people and say, no,

00:48:03.120 --> 00:48:06.400
you don't belong here for these purposes.

00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:09.600
Now, you know, this example of people saying don't listen to Stone

00:48:09.600 --> 00:48:11.360
Choir because we don't have families.

00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:14.000
Well, if you think that's persuasive, okay.

00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:16.880
Like it would be conflict of interest for me to convince anyone

00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:20.240
otherwise. I'm telling you that I think if you examine that rationally

00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:22.400
and you look at the fact At the facts, it's dumb.

00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:23.200
But whatever.

00:48:23.200 --> 00:48:27.040
For me to say it's dumb is both true and completely biased.

00:48:27.040 --> 00:48:29.840
Because if you agree with me, then I win something.

00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:32.720
I win somebody saying that yeah, you're okay.

00:48:32.720 --> 00:48:35.440
The greater problem that we face is that

00:48:36.560 --> 00:48:42.320
the discussion of the ideas can't be separated from the men, but

00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:44.480
sometimes it's just situational.

00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:47.440
You know, I'm not going to give a bunch of parenting advice

00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:49.120
certainly unbidden.

00:48:49.120 --> 00:48:51.920
You know, every so often people ask me for my advice about

00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:55.360
things and I disclose like, look, I was married and I got

00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:57.280
divorced and I don't have kids, so I can tell you what

00:48:57.280 --> 00:48:59.600
I think, but please take it with a grain of salt.

00:48:59.600 --> 00:49:02.400
And then I will give them the best advice I possibly can,

00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:03.360
only if asked.

00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:05.680
I'm never gonna chase anybody around and giving them advice.

00:49:05.680 --> 00:49:08.080
I don't think I've ever harmed anyone by anything I've said.

00:49:08.080 --> 00:49:11.600
I have a fair degree of wisdom about things, but it can

00:49:11.600 --> 00:49:16.400
only possibly be from the place of generic advice and not experience.

00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:20.000
So the conflict there is that if I'm trying to convince you

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:23.200
to include me, then I'm selling something.

00:49:23.200 --> 00:49:25.600
If someone comes to me and says, Look, I know you're conflicted,

00:49:25.600 --> 00:49:27.760
but you also do a pretty good job with the stuff.

00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:28.400
What do you think?

00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:29.200
Like, sure.

00:49:29.200 --> 00:49:31.760
I'm happy to help is any way I can.

00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:35.360
You know, the divorce thing is particularly funny because I was married

00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:35.920
for 10 years.

00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:37.440
I got married when I was 24.

00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:39.520
I was married for 10 years, which is longer than a lot

00:49:39.520 --> 00:49:43.520
of the guys who criticize me for being divorced or for not

00:49:43.520 --> 00:49:44.560
being married.

00:49:44.560 --> 00:49:47.200
I would have said up until the afternoon that I found out

00:49:47.200 --> 00:49:49.440
I wasn't going to be married anymore, but I would have said

00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:50.560
I was happily married.

00:49:50.560 --> 00:49:54.080
Now, looking back, you know, doing a post-mortem on things, I can

00:49:54.080 --> 00:49:56.400
see mistakes that I made along the way.

00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:58.640
I can certainly tell you any number of things that you can

00:49:58.640 --> 00:50:00.480
do to have a failed marriage.

00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:02.640
And I can tell you, you know, the opposite of those is

00:50:02.720 --> 00:50:04.160
going to make your marriage work better.

00:50:04.160 --> 00:50:07.920
I don't go around doing that precisely because there's a conflict.

00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:10.400
For me, the divorce guy to go around telling people how to

00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:13.280
be happily married, it's just kind of gross.

00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:16.560
Even if it's right, even if everything that I would say is

00:50:16.560 --> 00:50:21.840
completely factual, there's still kind of an inherent grossness to the bias

00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:25.040
of someone who has this conflict saying, no, look, I'm still an

00:50:25.040 --> 00:50:26.640
expert, even though mine burned down.

00:50:26.640 --> 00:50:28.400
Let me tell you how to do your marriage right.

00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:29.920
It's preposterous.

00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:32.560
So as much as possible, I avoid it, even though I do

00:50:32.560 --> 00:50:36.160
have things to say, simply for appearances, not for the sake of

00:50:36.160 --> 00:50:39.520
of looking good, just that the world doesn't need more people who

00:50:39.520 --> 00:50:42.720
are bad at things who have proven to have done something wrong

00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:44.320
trying to play.

00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:47.440
On the other hand, the guys who think that their marriages are

00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:51.680
perfect and that they can never possibly get divorced are often deluding

00:50:51.680 --> 00:50:54.960
themselves to some degree because the world is screwed up and the

00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:57.280
pressures on families are horrific.

00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:01.680
The pressures on girls, especially with you know, no fault divorce is

00:51:01.680 --> 00:51:03.280
completely universal.

00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:06.880
It's very easy for th these things to be contagious.

00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:10.080
Divorce itself is actually contagious in social circles.

00:51:10.080 --> 00:51:14.080
A lot of people will have seen circumstances where one couple gets

00:51:14.080 --> 00:51:18.080
divorced and all the girlfriends of that woman who got divorced within

00:51:18.080 --> 00:51:20.000
a few years, most of them are too.

00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:21.280
That's contagion.

00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:21.840
It's evil.

00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:23.120
It's spiritual disease.

00:51:23.120 --> 00:51:24.320
It's spiritual rot.

00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:27.520
But the legal system makes it so easy that all someone has

00:51:27.520 --> 00:51:28.560
to do is get an idea.

00:51:28.560 --> 00:51:31.200
Oh, I don't want I'd be happier doing something else.

00:51:31.200 --> 00:51:34.560
And it doesn't take very long to burn down a marriage.

00:51:34.560 --> 00:51:37.440
So I would just warn guys who are like, oh, these guys

00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:40.000
don't know what they're talking about, and you shouldn't listen to them

00:51:40.240 --> 00:51:44.240
from a perspective of being smug about their own marriages.

00:51:44.240 --> 00:51:47.440
That's you're just asking for trouble.

00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:48.560
Don't do that.

00:51:48.560 --> 00:51:52.080
Worry about doing your own thing well, don't worry about saying how

00:51:52.080 --> 00:51:54.000
bad I am at doing things.

00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:56.960
And again, this is mercenary for me to defend myself.

00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:58.480
I freely acknowledge that.

00:51:58.480 --> 00:52:00.880
So if you think I'm being a jerk by saying I didn't

00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:02.400
do anything wrong, fine.

00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:05.680
it's a conflict of interest for me to get you to agree

00:52:05.680 --> 00:52:06.320
with me.

00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:08.720
And this is us playing with our cards face up.

00:52:08.720 --> 00:52:11.040
I can tell you all of these things because I believe that

00:52:11.040 --> 00:52:12.400
the argument stands.

00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:15.840
If you agree with me that not getting divorced is good, I

00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:19.280
lose. If you agree with me that having kids is good, I

00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:21.600
lose. There's no conflict there.

00:52:21.600 --> 00:52:25.280
The greater the success that we have in getting people to do

00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:28.400
what God says about these things, the worse we look.

00:52:28.400 --> 00:52:30.160
And I'm okay with that.

00:52:30.160 --> 00:52:33.520
And as we've said before, the specifics of our lives, the fact

00:52:33.520 --> 00:52:37.440
that I have no family, I have no kids, I have nothing

00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:41.920
that would cause me harm if and when I was doxxed and

00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:45.840
after I've been doxed, ongoing threats in hatred and all the other

00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:49.360
crap. It's fine because it's only directed at me.

00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:52.400
This podcast would not exist if I had a wife and kids.

00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:53.280
It simply wouldn't.

00:52:53.280 --> 00:52:56.160
Because I couldn't take the chance of doing this.

00:52:56.160 --> 00:52:59.360
Because I wouldn't just be YOLOing for myself anymore.

00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:01.040
I would be involving a wife.

00:53:01.040 --> 00:53:03.760
I would be involving kids who have to go to school, who

00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:08.160
would be hated and berated and abused, who would be suffering for

00:53:08.160 --> 00:53:10.560
things that I am saying and things that I'm doing.

00:53:10.560 --> 00:53:12.880
I would never do that as a married man.

00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:15.360
And that's really what the message is when guys like, don't listen

00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:17.600
to those they should just have wives, they should shut up and

00:53:17.600 --> 00:53:19.120
get off the internet.

00:53:19.120 --> 00:53:24.320
What we're doing here that's having such profoundly beneficial effect on people

00:53:24.560 --> 00:53:27.920
can only exist because of our personal failures.

00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:29.520
That's simply a fact.

00:53:29.520 --> 00:53:33.360
I don't think that the guys who agree with us who have

00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:36.560
kids and have you know happy, good families.

00:53:36.560 --> 00:53:38.880
You aren't cowards for not doing what we do.

00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:40.160
You have to keep your heads down.

00:53:40.160 --> 00:53:41.760
You had to feed your kids.

00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:44.400
That's exactly what you need to do because you have a conflict

00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:46.480
of interest, just like I do.

00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:49.440
Your conflict of interest is on one hand, I know all these

00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:51.680
things are true and I think that it's important that they be

00:53:51.680 --> 00:53:54.640
said. On the other hand, if I say them in public, I'll

00:53:54.640 --> 00:53:57.280
be destroyed and I might not be able to feed my family

00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:59.920
and my wife is gonna get hated and my kids are gonna

00:53:59.920 --> 00:54:03.120
be abused at school and I can't do that to them.

00:54:03.120 --> 00:54:04.800
That's a conflict of interest.

00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.760
And you resolve it by keeping your mouth shut in public.

00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:09.360
And you're not a coward for doing it.

00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:11.440
You're choosing correctly.

00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:14.160
I don't have that particular conflict.

00:54:14.160 --> 00:54:17.040
I don't have anything to lose except for my life and whatever

00:54:17.040 --> 00:54:20.160
material possessions I have, and I'm not attached to either one of

00:54:20.160 --> 00:54:21.120
those things.

00:54:21.120 --> 00:54:24.480
Beyond like I'm thankful that God has given me these gifts, but

00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:28.480
I'm using them as best I can to serve his purposes for

00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:30.400
the benefit of others.

00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:35.600
It's a completely self-serving comment if I'm selling something, but the question

00:54:35.600 --> 00:54:38.560
for the objective observer is is it true or not?

00:54:38.560 --> 00:54:40.160
And if you think it's false, fine.

00:54:40.160 --> 00:54:43.360
And if you think it's true, okay, like that's the reason we're

00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:44.880
able to do what we do.

00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:47.840
But the fact that over and over again people want to tell

00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:50.080
us you should stop doing the thing that you're doing that's so

00:54:50.080 --> 00:54:54.720
effective and go be just like me, that's conflicted too.

00:54:54.720 --> 00:54:59.120
It's not that the generic advice is bad, it's that it doesn't

00:54:59.120 --> 00:55:01.920
address the specific situation.

00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:02.240
So

00:55:03.280 --> 00:55:06.320
there are lots of conversations where I'm happy to be excluded from

00:55:06.720 --> 00:55:08.480
I should be excluded.

00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:10.960
And that's good order.

00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:14.080
There are other conversations like it doesn't matter if I'm one of

00:55:14.080 --> 00:55:19.280
the people speaking, but everyone else has to decide that for themselves.

00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:22.320
Don't let me convince you that I get to play, because that's

00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:24.080
conflicted, even if I'm right.

00:55:24.080 --> 00:55:25.680
That's the whole point here.

00:55:25.680 --> 00:55:28.560
The guy who's trying to say, let me play, the guy who's

00:55:28.560 --> 00:55:32.720
saying, look, what I'm doing is okay, he's conflicted all by itself.

00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:34.960
Doesn't matter if there's money on the line.

00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:36.080
He has a reputation.

00:55:36.080 --> 00:55:37.280
He's being included.

00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:39.280
There's the social benefit.

00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:41.840
There's just being part of the crowd.

00:55:41.840 --> 00:55:45.520
That all by itself creates a conflict when you're gonna be the

00:55:45.520 --> 00:55:48.560
winner. It's a separate question if you're gonna be the loser.

00:55:48.560 --> 00:55:51.520
If I tell you something that's true that makes me look bad,

00:55:51.520 --> 00:55:53.200
okay. So it goes.

00:55:53.200 --> 00:55:55.280
Let me be an example.

00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:56.400
I remember in high school

00:55:57.760 --> 00:56:02.320
we had a motivational speaker who had abused PCP.

00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:05.440
And so he came in and he was dressed very shabbily and

00:56:05.520 --> 00:56:08.080
you know it was clear this kind of how he probably made

00:56:08.080 --> 00:56:08.720
a lot of his money.

00:56:08.720 --> 00:56:10.640
I don't think he had any job prospects.

00:56:10.640 --> 00:56:13.680
So going around and speaking to high school kids was his thing.

00:56:13.680 --> 00:56:15.280
And I very clearly remember this.

00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:17.680
Like it was an effective motivational speech.

00:56:17.680 --> 00:56:22.320
He talked about having been hardcore drug abuser who took PCP or

00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:23.280
angel dust.

00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:28.240
I'm not gonna describe how he injured himself, like the specifics, but

00:56:28.640 --> 00:56:32.080
when he made his case to prove that the story he was

00:56:32.080 --> 00:56:35.920
telling was true, as part of one of his drug trips, he

00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:37.280
had lost an eye.

00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:40.080
And to prove this, I don't remember if he had spectacles or

00:56:40.080 --> 00:56:42.960
not, but he if he did, he took them off.

00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:46.960
But he took the microphone, you know, the big bulky microphone, held

00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:49.360
it up to one of his eyes, and he pulled out a

00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:53.440
pair of nail clippers in his other hand and he tapped his

00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:56.080
eyeball to show that it was a glass eye, it was a

00:56:56.080 --> 00:56:59.680
fake eye because he had injured it and lost it as a

00:56:59.680 --> 00:57:02.000
result of abusing PCP.

00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:04.640
He was telling us something terrible about himself.

00:57:04.640 --> 00:57:05.520
And it stuck with me.

00:57:05.520 --> 00:57:06.960
Like I said, it was pretty effective.

00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:08.400
Like, okay, I'm not gonna do drugs.

00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:10.640
I don't want it like it was just gruesome.

00:57:10.640 --> 00:57:11.680
The story was gruesome.

00:57:11.680 --> 00:57:13.840
I'm not gonna give you the details, but that I remember them

00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:15.840
like thirty years later.

00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:19.360
He was paid to be there, probably next to nothing.

00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:23.440
He was saying something about himself that was embarrassing to a bunch

00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:26.720
of teenage kids who were kind of laughing at him.

00:57:26.720 --> 00:57:30.320
And he did it anyway, because it was an important thing to

00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:33.440
say, Look, you think that you can mess around with the stuff

00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:35.680
and you'll be all right, and it's simply not true.

00:57:35.680 --> 00:57:38.080
So the fact that he would stand up there and he would

00:57:38.080 --> 00:57:40.880
make himself look bad for the sake of sake of other people

00:57:41.360 --> 00:57:44.960
lent him more credibility than the principal standing up there and saying,

00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:46.640
Don't do drugs, kid.

00:57:46.640 --> 00:57:48.800
Like, that's not persuasive.

00:57:48.800 --> 00:57:53.280
It's not persuasive when someone who isn't a drug user, who doesn't

00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:56.880
do anything tells you not to do something.

00:57:56.880 --> 00:57:58.720
I've never even smoked a cigarette.

00:57:58.720 --> 00:58:01.840
I'm basically completely straight edge except for alcohol.

00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:05.120
Inadvertently I never really drank alcohol those about thirty.

00:58:05.120 --> 00:58:07.360
I wasn't trying to be straight edge, I was just wasn't that

00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:08.560
interested in it.

00:58:08.560 --> 00:58:11.760
So for me to tell anybody, don't do drugs, doesn't have any

00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:14.320
credibility. Because like, what do I know?

00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:18.160
Like I can give you science and studies and crap, but there's

00:58:18.160 --> 00:58:21.600
no credibility to someone saying be just like me.

00:58:21.600 --> 00:58:23.520
That's a conflict of interest.

00:58:23.520 --> 00:58:27.840
The guy who started out smoking weed and ended up smoking PCP

00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:31.600
and losing his eye as a result of it, he has credibility

00:58:31.600 --> 00:58:33.600
when he says don't do drugs.

00:58:33.600 --> 00:58:37.680
Because despite the fact that he was paid some pittance, there was

00:58:37.680 --> 00:58:39.520
not really a conflict of interest there.

00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:41.680
He was telling a true story, which is part of why he

00:58:41.680 --> 00:58:43.040
took out the nail clippers.

00:58:43.040 --> 00:58:45.120
Like he wasn't just weaving a tail.

00:58:45.120 --> 00:58:49.120
He actually lost his eye because he was messing around with drugs.

00:58:49.120 --> 00:58:54.560
So that's persuasive because the facts were presented and there was no

00:58:54.560 --> 00:58:56.480
conflict of interest from the guy.

00:58:56.480 --> 00:58:59.920
If the principal had stood up there and told the same story

00:58:59.920 --> 00:59:03.440
about the third party, like, you know, there's this guy, like I'm

00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:06.480
telling you, I'm telling you that someone took PCP and he lost

00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:09.360
his eye and so don't do drugs, which is a pretty good

00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:12.320
message. But it doesn't have the credibility of the man saying it

00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:17.200
himself. Because when you look at the evidence and you look at

00:59:17.200 --> 00:59:21.520
whether there are conflicts or not, his interest in not being made

00:59:21.520 --> 00:59:24.880
fun of or laughed at by teenage boys and girls in an

00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:29.200
audience, was outweighed by his interest in and wanting to help people,

00:59:29.200 --> 00:59:32.960
and wanting his stupidity and his failures in his life to not

00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:34.640
be a complete waste.

00:59:34.640 --> 00:59:39.520
Sometimes when someone can act in some fashion as a motivational speaker,

00:59:39.520 --> 00:59:41.200
that's kind of what it is.

00:59:41.200 --> 00:59:45.920
You know, if I talk about staying married, getting married, having kids,

00:59:45.920 --> 00:59:48.480
it's a little bit like being a motivational speaker.

00:59:48.480 --> 00:59:51.200
If you conclude, well, wait, wait a minute, you don't have any

00:59:51.200 --> 00:59:51.600
of that.

00:59:51.600 --> 00:59:52.480
Yeah, you're right.

00:59:52.480 --> 00:59:55.760
I don't, and it stinks, and I don't want that for you.

00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:58.240
I lose if you agree with me.

00:59:58.240 --> 01:00:01.360
That's the principle that I want you to apply to these other

01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:03.760
circumstances. Again, this is not look at me, look at me.

01:00:03.760 --> 01:00:06.400
This is I'm showing you that if you agree with me about

01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:09.440
this one thing, I come out the loser for that argument.

01:00:09.440 --> 01:00:11.360
I come out the guy that doesn't have the thing that I

01:00:11.360 --> 01:00:11.920
want you to have.

01:00:11.920 --> 01:00:13.840
I want you to do better than me.

01:00:14.240 --> 01:00:19.680
That is the difference between conveying information honestly and having a conflict

01:00:19.680 --> 01:00:21.600
of interest about things.

01:00:21.600 --> 01:00:25.520
Because a lot of the discussions that we have online today are

01:00:25.680 --> 01:00:29.280
dominated somehow by guys who do have these conflicts of interest.

01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:33.760
They're hiding the fact of whatever's going on in their family or

01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:35.120
their past life.

01:00:35.120 --> 01:00:39.120
And then they're arguing for the mistake for the things that they've

01:00:39.120 --> 01:00:41.280
done. Calling it a mistake is begging the question.

01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:43.840
Assuming it's completely fine that they did it, they should say, look,

01:00:43.840 --> 01:00:45.280
I did it and here's why it's okay.

01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:46.560
So I said at the beginning.

01:00:46.560 --> 01:00:50.160
It's perfectly fine for you to say that and disclose, look, if

01:00:50.160 --> 01:00:51.680
you agree with me, I win.

01:00:51.680 --> 01:00:52.960
I think it's a good thing.

01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:54.560
I want you to be a winner like me.

01:00:54.560 --> 01:00:56.800
You should do the same thing that I did.

01:00:56.800 --> 01:01:01.920
Someone who has to conceal personal facts in order to persuade you,

01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:06.960
they're betraying the fact that their conflict of interest is actually material.

01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:10.080
If it were no big deal, that they had, you know, their

01:01:10.080 --> 01:01:14.000
kids were whatever, their wife was whatever, their background was whatever, if

01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:16.400
it didn't matter, they would disclose those things.

01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:18.720
They would say, here's part of my story, and here's how I

01:01:18.720 --> 01:01:21.520
got here, and here's why I think you should do this.

01:01:21.520 --> 01:01:24.720
I'm an expert because of this.

01:01:24.720 --> 01:01:28.640
That would at least disclose the conflict and it would significantly mitigate

01:01:28.640 --> 01:01:32.240
it. The guys who hide the details are the ones that are

01:01:32.240 --> 01:01:34.480
saying, A, I'm conflicted here.

01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:38.400
And B, it matters enough that I don't want you to know

01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:39.040
about it.

01:01:39.040 --> 01:01:42.800
And again, conflicted does not mean emotional turmoil.

01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:46.880
Conflicted is not a question of being torn in both directions and

01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:49.040
having some emotional state.

01:01:49.040 --> 01:01:51.760
It's literally a question of competing interests.

01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:54.160
And oftentimes there are two good interests.

01:01:54.160 --> 01:01:56.960
One good interest goes in one direction, the other one goes in

01:01:56.960 --> 01:01:59.040
the other, and a man has to choose.

01:01:59.040 --> 01:02:01.360
And in his personal life, that's fine.

01:02:01.360 --> 01:02:04.640
The problem is when you get online or you get anywhere in

01:02:04.640 --> 01:02:07.760
real life where you're dealing with other people, if you're making the

01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:11.840
same pitch about whatever the subject is, and you're not disclosing that

01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:15.280
if you If you agree with me, I come out ahead here

01:02:15.280 --> 01:02:17.920
because I was guilty of doing that, or I'm innocent of doing

01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:18.880
that, but I did it.

01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:20.720
I was a participant in doing that.

01:02:20.720 --> 01:02:23.120
And if you agree with me, then you're saying that what I

01:02:23.120 --> 01:02:24.800
did was okay too.

01:02:24.800 --> 01:02:26.480
That's a conflict of interest.

01:02:26.720 --> 01:02:29.680
That's the sort of person that shouldn't be a participant in those

01:02:29.680 --> 01:02:35.040
conversations because they're adding their voice in a scenario where they're effectively

01:02:35.040 --> 01:02:40.800
tricking people by not divulging something that's material, something that actually matters.

01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:44.000
If your kids or your wife or whatever, something that's very dear

01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:47.200
and important to you, if that has to be kept secret in

01:02:47.200 --> 01:02:50.400
order for you to participate in the conversation, that's a cover-up.

01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:53.760
That is an act of omission that is a deception.

01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:56.320
Because everyone else should be able to decide whether or not it's

01:02:56.320 --> 01:02:59.200
material. You don't get to decide that for yourself.

01:02:59.200 --> 01:03:02.000
And you certainly don't get to lie about it.

01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:06.160
When we're looking at these discussions, sometimes it's simply a question of

01:03:06.160 --> 01:03:08.160
who gets to participate and who doesn't.

01:03:08.160 --> 01:03:10.400
I don't get to be in dad chat, and that's fine.

01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:11.680
I don't belong there.

01:03:11.680 --> 01:03:14.480
I'm not going to be the guy who's giving long form discussions

01:03:14.480 --> 01:03:16.320
about here's how to have a happy marriage.

01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:18.720
I can tell you have a failed marriage.

01:03:18.720 --> 01:03:20.320
And I can tell you some things that if you did the

01:03:20.320 --> 01:03:23.520
opposite, you marriage would be happier, because that's just how it works.

01:03:23.520 --> 01:03:26.000
That's not like being a relationship expert.

01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.960
It's literally don't make the mistake and you won't pay the price.

01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:32.240
And the opposite of making the mistake is that things are pretty

01:03:32.240 --> 01:03:36.320
good. I'm not gonna do that simply because of the optics.

01:03:36.320 --> 01:03:37.920
It's not my place to do that.

01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:40.240
There are plenty of other people that can give good advice.

01:03:40.240 --> 01:03:43.200
I don't have anything new to add apart from personal anecdotes, which

01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:45.520
in this case I'm not going to share because it's about you

01:03:45.520 --> 01:03:48.240
know somebody's no longer around and doesn't want anything to do with

01:03:48.240 --> 01:03:51.920
me. So I'm not going to drag them into my stuff.

01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:54.480
So all I'm going to do for the most part is keep

01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:56.080
silent about those things.

01:03:56.080 --> 01:03:59.040
Even though I would be honest if I talked about 'em, I

01:03:59.040 --> 01:04:02.800
wish that everyone who are participating in all these various discussions would

01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:05.200
have the same amount of integrity.

01:04:05.200 --> 01:04:08.720
And it's conflict of interest for me to say that's integrity.

01:04:08.720 --> 01:04:09.600
You have to decide.

01:04:09.600 --> 01:04:11.200
Am I trying to sell something?

01:04:11.200 --> 01:04:12.640
Am I trying to make myself look good?

01:04:12.640 --> 01:04:14.080
Or am I just giving a tool?

01:04:14.080 --> 01:04:15.920
You know what I want you to think.

01:04:15.920 --> 01:04:17.920
You have to then decide why do I want you to think

01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:18.960
that? Is it good for you?

01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:19.920
Is it beneficial?

01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:20.480
Or am I

01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:22.880
selling something else?

01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:25.600
That question should always be in people's minds.

01:04:25.600 --> 01:04:30.480
And Christians unfortunately are not really good at that because it's judgmental.

01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:32.960
It's introspecting someone's motives.

01:04:32.960 --> 01:04:37.680
It's actually thinking about outside of yourself, thinking about the other person

01:04:37.680 --> 01:04:40.400
and what makes them tick, what makes them do the things they're

01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:43.120
doing. Not taking everything at face value.

01:04:43.120 --> 01:04:46.160
The purpose of this episode is you should not be taking things

01:04:46.160 --> 01:04:50.000
at face value with other people You should be understanding where they're

01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:51.440
coming from and why.

01:04:51.440 --> 01:04:54.320
And sometimes maybe that doesn't put them in a very good light.

01:04:54.320 --> 01:04:57.680
It doesn't mean they're bad or wrong or guilty of anything, but

01:04:57.680 --> 01:05:01.360
they should disclose the things that if you knew about them, you

01:05:01.360 --> 01:05:05.040
take a different approach to how you view the subject.

01:05:05.040 --> 01:05:11.200
Fundamentally this question is about honest discussions taking place unimpeded and without

01:05:11.200 --> 01:05:17.120
disruption And when men conceal their motivations, conceal their interests that will

01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:20.880
necessarily nudge them in one way, the rest of us can't talk

01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:24.160
freely. The rest of us can't have an honest conversation with the

01:05:24.160 --> 01:05:27.120
one guy who's vehement and passionate?

01:05:27.120 --> 01:05:29.920
I mean, like, wow, he really cares about this subject.

01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:32.000
He doesn't tell you the one thing that matters.

01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:34.800
He doesn't tell you why he's fighting for it.

01:05:34.800 --> 01:05:39.200
That conflict should be divulged and everyone should take it into account.

01:05:39.200 --> 01:05:41.680
And when a man is conflicted, as Corey was saying, in the

01:05:41.680 --> 01:05:44.480
case of these discussions, he shouldn't be our participant.

01:05:44.480 --> 01:05:46.880
Not because he's bad or he's a liar, but because there are

01:05:46.960 --> 01:05:49.840
plenty of other people who can talk about those things that don't

01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:51.200
have to choose.

01:05:51.200 --> 01:05:55.120
Because if the discussion could go either way and a man has

01:05:55.120 --> 01:05:59.120
a vested interest in it only coming out one way, then suddenly

01:05:59.120 --> 01:06:01.360
the discussion isn't about ideas anymore.

01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:04.720
It's about if we decide that this discussion is going to break

01:06:04.720 --> 01:06:08.640
in this direction, in this man who has competing interests in the

01:06:08.640 --> 01:06:09.920
opposite direction.

01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:11.760
We're choosing against him.

01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:13.440
We're not talking about an idea anymore.

01:06:13.440 --> 01:06:15.760
We're talking about condemning the guy who's talking.

01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:18.720
The only way to have those conversations if he's not present at

01:06:18.720 --> 01:06:22.800
all. And that sounds heartless, but that's just it's something that's a

01:06:22.800 --> 01:06:26.080
natural part of of business life and and other things.

01:06:26.080 --> 01:06:28.960
Sometimes someone just has to leave the room so that something can

01:06:28.960 --> 01:06:31.040
be discussed because of the conflict.

01:06:31.040 --> 01:06:34.480
Not because they're bad, not because they're gonna lie or anything, because

01:06:34.480 --> 01:06:38.320
it's not fair and reasonable for them to be a participant when

01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:41.600
you're talking about something that could go the wrong way for them.

01:06:41.600 --> 01:06:44.480
They can speak in their own defense in that context, but they

01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:47.520
don't get to persuade you without it making clear that they're on

01:06:47.520 --> 01:06:49.120
the opposite side of the question.

01:06:49.120 --> 01:06:51.680
And that's what this is all about.

01:06:53.040 --> 01:06:55.920
This is again one of those things that we do recognize in

01:06:55.920 --> 01:06:58.240
our civil courts.

01:06:58.240 --> 01:07:03.840
We have exceptions to some of our rules that exclude out-of-court statements

01:07:04.160 --> 01:07:10.160
when those statements are against interest, specifically against the interest of the

01:07:10.160 --> 01:07:12.400
party making the statement.

01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:15.440
This is one of those where if you admit to a crime,

01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:21.440
for instance, out of court, that can typically be admitted.

01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:22.640
So, if you

01:07:23.520 --> 01:07:28.400
have made a statement that is against your interest, there is a

01:07:28.400 --> 01:07:32.240
certain amount of weight that comes along with that that does not

01:07:32.240 --> 01:07:35.040
come along with a statement that is in your interests.

01:07:35.280 --> 01:07:38.000
And the reason for that is rather obvious.

01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:41.680
If you're making a statement that is in your interest, there's a

01:07:41.680 --> 01:07:43.920
reason for you to make that statement.

01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:48.080
If you are making a statement that is simply objectively against your

01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:53.040
interests, there are many reasons for you not to make that statement.

01:07:53.040 --> 01:07:56.080
And so the fact that you are willing to say that thing

01:07:56.080 --> 01:07:59.840
makes it more likely that you believe it is not only true

01:07:59.920 --> 01:08:02.720
but important enough to be said be said.

01:08:02.720 --> 01:08:06.560
And so this is one of the heuristics, one of the general

01:08:06.560 --> 01:08:10.480
rules that you can apply when assessing these sorts of things, when

01:08:10.480 --> 01:08:12.320
making these wisdom calls.

01:08:12.320 --> 01:08:16.640
If someone makes a statement that is in his interests, well, there's

01:08:16.560 --> 01:08:18.800
an obvious reason for him to make that statement.

01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:22.400
So you have to work that into your calculation.

01:08:22.400 --> 01:08:25.840
But on the other hand, and in the opposite direction, if he

01:08:25.840 --> 01:08:30.080
makes a statement that is against his interests, there are reasons for

01:08:30.080 --> 01:08:33.920
him not to say that, to withhold that information, to remain silent,

01:08:33.920 --> 01:08:36.160
and he did not do so.

01:08:36.160 --> 01:08:39.520
When it comes to the political, which is really what we have

01:08:39.520 --> 01:08:46.000
been addressing sort of tangentially in much of this episode so far.

01:08:46.000 --> 01:08:51.840
There are a number of active discussions that are very relevant here.

01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:55.920
One in particular, that comes up in a number of episodes and

01:08:55.920 --> 01:08:59.920
is going to be something that is simply ongoing in the political

01:08:59.920 --> 01:09:04.720
landscape in much of the world, particularly in the West, for the

01:09:04.720 --> 01:09:09.360
foreseeable future, is the issue of interracial marriage.

01:09:09.360 --> 01:09:12.240
And that is going to continue to come up because it is

01:09:12.240 --> 01:09:13.840
a live issue.

01:09:13.840 --> 01:09:19.520
Immigration, so called, mass migration, all of these problems lead into lead

01:09:19.520 --> 01:09:21.920
into this particular issue.

01:09:21.920 --> 01:09:27.120
And obviously in the US context we have the history of slavery

01:09:27.120 --> 01:09:31.280
and the Civil War and Emancipation and Integration and all these other

01:09:31.280 --> 01:09:38.320
things, the decriminalization of interracial marriage, miscegenation, which was illegal in living

01:09:38.320 --> 01:09:45.040
memory for some individuals, certainly in recent memory, recent history for basically

01:09:45.040 --> 01:09:49.200
everyone, for those who've studied history.

01:09:49.200 --> 01:09:54.640
Many of those who speak on this issue do not disclose the

01:09:54.640 --> 01:09:58.960
stake they have in the conclusion, in the outcome.

01:09:58.960 --> 01:10:05.920
And so for instance, if say the recriminalization of miscegenation of interracial

01:10:05.920 --> 01:10:10.960
marriage were on the table, and that is very much something that

01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:12.400
is legally on the table.

01:10:12.400 --> 01:10:17.760
That is only, again, very recently, that that was made a non-criminal

01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:23.440
matter. Not simply illegal, but a criminal matter.

01:10:23.440 --> 01:10:27.360
If a man has a wife of another race, and he is

01:10:27.360 --> 01:10:31.760
discussing this issue, and he does not disclose that he has that

01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:35.280
personal interest, he is doing that to deceive you.

01:10:35.280 --> 01:10:39.200
He is being manipulative, at the very least manipulative.

01:10:39.200 --> 01:10:42.240
That is something that he should disclose.

01:10:42.240 --> 01:10:45.840
The reason we used, as Wo said, the financial example is that

01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:48.960
it's very easy to understand, it's quantifiable.

01:10:48.960 --> 01:10:52.960
If you are acting as a regulator of Apple and you hold

01:10:52.960 --> 01:10:57.280
ten million dollars in Apple stock and the regulation that is before

01:10:57.280 --> 01:11:00.320
you, if you pass it, it is going to have the stock

01:11:00.320 --> 01:11:05.920
value, well you stand to lose five million dollars, give or take?

01:11:05.920 --> 01:11:12.160
That's a very real, concrete, quantifiable interest that you have in the

01:11:12.160 --> 01:11:15.680
outcome. That's something we can grasp very easily and understand.

01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:20.640
We understand why that man has an incentive to act in a

01:11:20.640 --> 01:11:23.120
certain way.

01:11:23.120 --> 01:11:26.640
This isn't quantifiable in the same way, but it is just as

01:11:26.640 --> 01:11:32.160
concrete If a man has a wife of another race, and what

01:11:32.160 --> 01:11:37.680
is being discussed is the legal status of that particular kind of

01:11:37.680 --> 01:11:42.000
union, he has a very real, a very concrete interest in the

01:11:43.120 --> 01:11:48.320
outcome. And so by and large, he should actually be excluded from

01:11:48.320 --> 01:11:49.600
the discussion.

01:11:49.600 --> 01:11:52.960
And the reason that he should be excluded from the discussion is

01:11:52.960 --> 01:11:56.480
that he Is that he has this concrete interest, and he is

01:11:56.480 --> 01:11:59.920
going to have to choose, he has a conflict of interest actually,

01:11:59.920 --> 01:12:04.160
because he is going to have to choose between, as it were,

01:12:04.480 --> 01:12:08.240
his wife and family on the one hand, and his nation on

01:12:08.240 --> 01:12:09.280
the other.

01:12:09.280 --> 01:12:13.920
Because the issue ultimately when we are speaking of interracial marriage, of

01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:19.920
miscegenation, is whether or not a given nation continues into the future.

01:12:19.920 --> 01:12:23.040
This is actually one of those cases where we can look specifically

01:12:23.040 --> 01:12:28.000
at Scripture, because this is what God did using the Assyrians to

01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:30.000
the northern kingdom of Israel.

01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:33.360
This is how he erased the northern ten tribes.

01:12:33.360 --> 01:12:37.120
The Assyrians, what they would do when they conquered a people, is

01:12:37.120 --> 01:12:40.240
they would bring in foreigners and they would remove at least a

01:12:40.240 --> 01:12:43.840
portion of the local population somewhere else within their empire.

01:12:43.840 --> 01:12:49.600
And then what they would do is basically encourage intermarriage miscegenation, and

01:12:49.600 --> 01:12:53.920
via that means they would destroy at least the one nation they'd

01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:56.720
conquered and probably another one somewhere else in the empire at the

01:12:56.720 --> 01:12:57.680
same time.

01:12:57.680 --> 01:13:03.040
This made it easier for them to rule over conquered peoples, because

01:13:03.040 --> 01:13:08.240
those peoples no longer had a specific identity as a specific nation.

01:13:08.240 --> 01:13:12.400
There was no longer any cohesion in that population.

01:13:12.640 --> 01:13:18.080
It was a divide and conquer tactic, very effective, a punishment from

01:13:18.080 --> 01:13:23.840
God. And so going forward, this is something that is still permissible

01:13:23.840 --> 01:13:29.200
in Western nations, those Western nations will cease to exist as those

01:13:29.200 --> 01:13:32.160
nations, as what they were historically.

01:13:32.160 --> 01:13:36.000
It is a literally existential question.

01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:41.040
And so those who have this stake in permitting the status quo

01:13:41.280 --> 01:13:46.880
to continue, or even accelerate, must be excluded from the discussion, because

01:13:46.880 --> 01:13:50.320
they have that specific interest.

01:13:50.320 --> 01:13:53.360
There are two reasons and two ways you can look at this.

01:13:53.360 --> 01:13:57.920
You exclude them because they have that specific interest, and so there

01:13:57.920 --> 01:14:02.240
is the chance of them behaving in a mercenary or deceptive or

01:14:02.240 --> 01:14:03.840
even malicious fashion.

01:14:04.080 --> 01:14:08.240
But even if you don't have that particular risk, if you set

01:14:08.240 --> 01:14:11.440
that aside, if the person is engaging in good faith, and I

01:14:11.440 --> 01:14:13.920
do not deny for a second that there are those who are

01:14:13.920 --> 01:14:18.080
engaging in good faith, but even if you set that aside, if

01:14:18.080 --> 01:14:21.760
the man is a good man, he is going to have a

01:14:21.760 --> 01:14:25.360
conflict of interest, because he will have a desire to see that

01:14:25.360 --> 01:14:28.720
which is best for his nation, and he will have a desire

01:14:28.720 --> 01:14:31.760
to see that which is best for his family, and in his

01:14:31.760 --> 01:14:36.480
specific case those things are in conflict.

01:14:36.480 --> 01:14:39.920
And so if he is a good man, you exclude him so

01:14:39.920 --> 01:14:42.160
as not to make him choose.

01:14:42.000 --> 01:14:45.040
So that you don't put him in the position of having to

01:14:45.040 --> 01:14:47.440
choose between his nation or his family.

01:14:47.440 --> 01:14:51.200
That is a terrible position in which to find oneself.

01:14:51.200 --> 01:14:54.880
No man wants no good man wants to be in that position.

01:14:54.880 --> 01:14:59.680
It's one of the reasons that we argue that interracial marriage is

01:14:59.680 --> 01:15:01.760
deeply unwise.

01:15:01.760 --> 01:15:05.680
Because it leads to these sorts of outcomes, it leads to situations

01:15:05.920 --> 01:15:08.800
in which a man has to choose between his wife and his

01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:11.920
children And his nation.

01:15:11.920 --> 01:15:16.080
If you're German and you marry a German, there's no conflict of

01:15:16.080 --> 01:15:19.440
interest, there's no choosing between your nation and your family because they

01:15:19.440 --> 01:15:22.000
are essentially identical.

01:15:22.000 --> 01:15:25.440
If you are French and you marry an African, you can very

01:15:25.440 --> 01:15:31.120
well have to choose between your family, which is not actually French,

01:15:31.120 --> 01:15:35.680
and not actually African, but sort of half one and sort of

01:15:35.680 --> 01:15:40.240
half the other, which forces you to choose, and more saliently forces

01:15:40.240 --> 01:15:43.440
your children to choose, well now you're in a position where you

01:15:43.440 --> 01:15:47.120
have to choose between your nation or your family.

01:15:47.120 --> 01:15:50.080
That is an unwise thing to do to yourself, and it is

01:15:50.080 --> 01:15:53.360
certainly an unwise thing to do to your children.

01:15:53.360 --> 01:15:55.440
And those who are of mixed race know this.

01:15:55.440 --> 01:15:58.320
It's one of the reasons that we have those of mixed race

01:15:58.320 --> 01:16:00.080
message us and ask us questions.

01:16:00.080 --> 01:16:03.840
We'll never disclose who those individuals are, of course, but we have

01:16:03.840 --> 01:16:07.200
received many of those messages and they thank us for speaking honestly

01:16:07.200 --> 01:16:10.480
on this because they have lived this experience.

01:16:10.480 --> 01:16:13.440
And I know some people think, oh, lived experience, it's a Marxist

01:16:13.440 --> 01:16:16.480
phrase. But as we've mentioned before, it's not, it's a real thing.

01:16:16.480 --> 01:16:18.640
Lived experience is something.

01:16:18.640 --> 01:16:21.840
If you work as a coal miner, you have a very different

01:16:21.840 --> 01:16:25.280
lived experience from someone who works in a law office.

01:16:25.280 --> 01:16:27.520
These are different things.

01:16:27.520 --> 01:16:33.360
They give you different perspective, a different sort of concrete knowledge of

01:16:33.360 --> 01:16:34.480
the world.

01:16:34.480 --> 01:16:38.720
And those who are of mixed race know for an absolute fact

01:16:38.720 --> 01:16:41.680
that they have had to choose, or they're still in a position

01:16:42.160 --> 01:16:45.120
where they're trying to choose, and it's difficult.

01:16:45.120 --> 01:16:51.200
Because when you are essentially by your nature, torn in multiple directions,

01:16:51.200 --> 01:16:52.960
that is a terrible position.

01:16:52.960 --> 01:16:55.840
That is a terrible burden to put on a child, and it

01:16:55.840 --> 01:17:02.080
is a difficult choice, because you legitimately have actual interests that are

01:17:02.080 --> 01:17:03.440
in conflict.

01:17:03.440 --> 01:17:08.080
It's not that you have one mercy mercenary interest and one legitimate

01:17:08.080 --> 01:17:12.000
interest, or you have this one that's clearly the stronger interests, and

01:17:12.000 --> 01:17:13.280
this one's the weaker.

01:17:13.280 --> 01:17:18.160
You may very well have two virtually identical in terms of weight

01:17:18.160 --> 01:17:23.120
or importance interests, tearing you in opposite directions.

01:17:23.120 --> 01:17:27.520
And so the men who have put themselves in that position have

01:17:27.520 --> 01:17:30.880
to be excluded from the discussion.

01:17:30.880 --> 01:17:36.400
Because they cannot engage, on the one hand, in a truly objective

01:17:36.400 --> 01:17:41.760
fashion, or, and perhaps even and on the other hand, you do

01:17:41.760 --> 01:17:45.280
not want to force them to choose in that way.

01:17:45.520 --> 01:17:50.240
This is something again that we see all over the place with

01:17:50.240 --> 01:17:52.000
regard to this discussion.

01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:57.760
On X in particular, many of those who decide to attack Stone

01:17:57.760 --> 01:18:02.720
Choir, attack Woe, attack me, on this issue, well it turns out

01:18:03.760 --> 01:18:07.040
they have wives of another race.

01:18:07.040 --> 01:18:10.720
They don't disclose that, at least not explicitly when they're making their

01:18:10.720 --> 01:18:15.280
arguments. It happens to be something that has been incidentally disclosed at

01:18:15.280 --> 01:18:17.440
some point in their past.

01:18:17.440 --> 01:18:21.120
That is a conflict of interest, that is something that absolutely should

01:18:21.120 --> 01:18:25.360
be disclosed, and those men should not be engaging in the discussion

01:18:25.520 --> 01:18:28.400
for the reasons we have laid out, for the reasons that I

01:18:28.400 --> 01:18:31.280
just laid out at some length.

01:18:31.280 --> 01:18:32.800
This is an important matter.

01:18:32.800 --> 01:18:35.600
This is something that has to be discussed.

01:18:35.600 --> 01:18:38.320
Now you can come down on one side or the other, you

01:18:38.320 --> 01:18:42.480
can mount whatever argument you want, construct it from scripture, construct it

01:18:42.480 --> 01:18:44.320
from reason, whatever it happens to be.

01:18:44.320 --> 01:18:47.280
We've done that elsewhere, in other episodes, we've done it in many

01:18:47.280 --> 01:18:50.720
places online, we've done it in other discussions.

01:18:50.720 --> 01:18:56.560
Leaving that aspect of this aside, regardless of where you come down

01:18:56.560 --> 01:19:02.080
on the issue, it is undeniably an important matter.

01:19:02.080 --> 01:19:06.160
It is something where it is certainly a matter of wisdom.

01:19:06.160 --> 01:19:10.000
It is something where there is, I would advance at least, an

01:19:10.000 --> 01:19:15.200
objectively correct answer, both scripturally and in all of these other ways,

01:19:15.200 --> 01:19:22.240
biologically, rationally, culturally, whatever else you want to use.

01:19:22.240 --> 01:19:26.720
And so being such an important issue, we need to have a

01:19:26.720 --> 01:19:33.840
proper discussion, a proper debate, a proper addressing of the matter that

01:19:33.840 --> 01:19:39.600
necessarily excludes those who have this conflict of interest.

01:19:39.600 --> 01:19:43.200
It's not that we're denying them a seat at the table or

01:19:43.200 --> 01:19:47.200
saying that these voices don't matter.

01:19:47.200 --> 01:19:50.160
We're doing it for the reasons that I have laid out, for

01:19:50.160 --> 01:19:55.840
the reasons we've laid out in this episode, and also elsewhere.

01:19:55.840 --> 01:20:00.480
Not all men get to speak on all topics.

01:20:00.480 --> 01:20:03.760
That is simply the reality of life.

01:20:03.760 --> 01:20:07.280
God has handed out gifts unequally, and certainly that plays into it,

01:20:07.280 --> 01:20:11.440
but as woe was saying with regard to marriage related matters, there

01:20:11.440 --> 01:20:15.360
are some topics where it is inappropriate for a man to speak.

01:20:15.360 --> 01:20:19.600
It's not even because a man doesn't necessarily have something to say

01:20:19.600 --> 01:20:20.960
on the topic.

01:20:20.960 --> 01:20:23.680
He may have some very good things to say on the topic.

01:20:23.680 --> 01:20:28.400
He may know the topic really well, but there is some compelling

01:20:28.400 --> 01:20:34.080
reason for him not to speak, to exclude him from speaking.

01:20:34.400 --> 01:20:36.560
A trivial example of this

01:20:37.520 --> 01:20:40.320
to make it perhaps more concrete.

01:20:40.320 --> 01:20:44.480
If you own a Jeep, you don't get to join the VW

01:20:44.720 --> 01:20:47.760
club. We all recognize that.

01:20:47.760 --> 01:20:51.040
Straightforward. If you sell your VW, you get kicked out of the

01:20:51.040 --> 01:20:53.440
VW club.

01:20:53.440 --> 01:20:57.520
There's a requirement to be in that club.

01:20:57.520 --> 01:21:02.480
If you don't meet the requirement, you are excluded by virtue of

01:21:02.480 --> 01:21:04.480
not meeting that requirement.

01:21:04.480 --> 01:21:08.880
The same thing is true with regard to certain topics of discussion,

01:21:08.880 --> 01:21:11.680
with regard to certain debates.

01:21:11.680 --> 01:21:14.800
And so I'm not going to say that Woe and I don't

01:21:14.720 --> 01:21:19.840
have accurate and useful things to say about some of the concrete

01:21:19.840 --> 01:21:23.840
day-to-day realities of living a married life.

01:21:23.840 --> 01:21:27.360
But by and large, we are not going to inject ourselves into

01:21:27.360 --> 01:21:31.440
that discussion, because neither one of us is married.

01:21:31.440 --> 01:21:37.520
And so there's a certain level of not necessarily but seemingly inappropriateness

01:21:37.680 --> 01:21:38.720
to doing that.

01:21:39.280 --> 01:21:43.760
There are certain subjects that are more appropriately addressed by those who

01:21:43.760 --> 01:21:48.880
have that concrete life experience with the thing.

01:21:48.880 --> 01:21:52.000
And again, as Woe was saying, with regard to the topic of

01:21:52.000 --> 01:21:54.560
drug use, this is one of the topics that comes up all

01:21:54.560 --> 01:21:58.560
the time in this area, the other being promiscuity, of course.

01:21:58.560 --> 01:22:02.640
There are those who use drugs who constantly try to drag others

01:22:02.640 --> 01:22:05.040
into that life.

01:22:05.040 --> 01:22:09.680
And so they have this mercenary interest in normalizing their behavior, and

01:22:09.680 --> 01:22:14.080
obviously the same is very true with regard to promiscuity, particularly with

01:22:14.080 --> 01:22:15.200
regard to women.

01:22:15.200 --> 01:22:19.200
Women who have made terrible life choices will often try to drag

01:22:19.200 --> 01:22:23.280
other women down to make themselves feel better, to make themselves feel

01:22:23.280 --> 01:22:27.280
more normal, because if every woman is a harlot, then no woman

01:22:27.280 --> 01:22:30.000
is a harlot, effectively.

01:22:30.240 --> 01:22:37.280
But with regard to drug use, there is something more compelling, specifically

01:22:37.360 --> 01:22:41.600
with regard to the statement against interest, when someone who has made

01:22:41.600 --> 01:22:47.280
these poor life choices tells you, don't do this, don't be like

01:22:47.600 --> 01:22:51.520
me. When someone tells you don't be like me, and it is

01:22:51.520 --> 01:22:54.400
something that is very clearly negative, for instance, losing an eye due

01:22:54.480 --> 01:22:59.840
to drug use, that is a compelling argument, and it is right

01:22:59.840 --> 01:23:02.160
to give that additional weight to that.

01:23:02.160 --> 01:23:05.600
But it is not to say, for instance, that Woe and I

01:23:05.600 --> 01:23:10.880
couldn't contribute something on the discussion of drug use, but it is

01:23:10.880 --> 01:23:15.760
different. Neither one of us has used drugs in the past.

01:23:15.760 --> 01:23:18.240
Neither one of us use any drugs.

01:23:18.240 --> 01:23:21.120
Neither one of us uses any drugs.

01:23:21.120 --> 01:23:23.200
We both drink alcohol.

01:23:23.200 --> 01:23:24.560
That's the extent of it.

01:23:24.560 --> 01:23:26.160
Scripture says that's fine, of course.

01:23:26.160 --> 01:23:27.280
Scripture in fact commands it.

01:23:27.280 --> 01:23:29.280
We've gone over that in other episodes.

01:23:29.280 --> 01:23:32.800
I have smoked a handful of cigarettes in my life, woe is

01:23:32.800 --> 01:23:37.920
not. And so either of us speaking on the topic of drug

01:23:38.240 --> 01:23:41.840
use is not going to be able to say, Don't be like

01:23:41.840 --> 01:23:44.320
me. Because if we said don't be like me, that would be

01:23:44.320 --> 01:23:47.920
telling you to use drugs and that would be an insane argument.

01:23:48.880 --> 01:23:50.000
We can bring up

01:23:51.360 --> 01:23:52.720
the research.

01:23:52.720 --> 01:23:56.400
We can bring up secondhand accounts because both of us have had

01:23:56.400 --> 01:24:00.560
friends who have used drugs and some have had very bad experiences

01:24:00.560 --> 01:24:01.440
with them.

01:24:02.800 --> 01:24:06.880
But there is a difference, again, because there is something compelling about

01:24:06.880 --> 01:24:12.080
a man speaking from personal experience and telling you, do not do

01:24:12.080 --> 01:24:14.240
the things that I have done.

01:24:14.240 --> 01:24:15.520
They are bad.

01:24:15.520 --> 01:24:17.360
They will harm you.

01:24:17.360 --> 01:24:20.240
It doesn't mean that you need someone who has done the bad

01:24:20.240 --> 01:24:23.200
things in order to have the argument, because of course, we can

01:24:23.200 --> 01:24:27.040
show you the research on why you should not do hallucinogens.

01:24:27.040 --> 01:24:31.360
We can mount the scriptural argument, the Christian argument, for why you

01:24:31.360 --> 01:24:33.440
should not do hallucinogens.

01:24:33.440 --> 01:24:37.920
We could show you very, very clear medical studies for why you

01:24:37.920 --> 01:24:40.880
should not do certain hard drugs, because they will literally kill you,

01:24:40.880 --> 01:24:44.000
they destroy your body.

01:24:44.000 --> 01:24:46.960
And those arguments are compelling.

01:24:46.960 --> 01:24:51.440
And we don't really have a conflict of interest there.

01:24:51.600 --> 01:24:55.840
There's the minor conflict of interest that we're saying, you know, be

01:24:55.840 --> 01:24:58.800
like me, but it's not really the argument we're advancing.

01:24:58.800 --> 01:25:03.440
When I tell you don't do drugs, because you shouldn't, obviously, they're

01:25:03.440 --> 01:25:07.040
bad for you, I'm not telling you don't do drugs because I

01:25:07.040 --> 01:25:08.240
want to look normal.

01:25:08.240 --> 01:25:10.240
Because I haven't done drugs and so I don't want any else

01:25:10.240 --> 01:25:10.720
to do them.

01:25:10.720 --> 01:25:13.040
I'm saying don't do them because they're harmful to you.

01:25:13.040 --> 01:25:17.760
And here are the data showing that that is the case.

01:25:17.760 --> 01:25:20.640
But on the other hand, the other side of that coin as

01:25:20.640 --> 01:25:25.360
it were, the habitual drug user who tells you, Oh drug use

01:25:25.360 --> 01:25:29.840
is fine, you should do drugs, he has a conflict of interest

01:25:29.920 --> 01:25:32.480
because he is trying to drag you into that lifestyle.

01:25:32.880 --> 01:25:34.800
And so you should assess that.

01:25:34.800 --> 01:25:41.120
That factors into how you weigh his testimony, how you weigh his

01:25:41.120 --> 01:25:45.200
argument, whether or not you find him to be a credible witness,

01:25:45.200 --> 01:25:48.320
to speak in the legal terms.

01:25:48.320 --> 01:25:52.560
Because he has this very clear interest in the outcome.

01:25:52.560 --> 01:25:56.480
For those who are telling you don't do hard drugs, there's less

01:25:56.720 --> 01:25:59.680
of an interest in the outcome because by and large, most people

01:25:59.680 --> 01:26:02.160
don't do hard drugs.

01:26:02.160 --> 01:26:08.000
And so when someone is advancing that argument, there's no real large

01:26:08.080 --> 01:26:12.320
scale grander benefit if you do or don't do drugs.

01:26:12.320 --> 01:26:17.120
Because it remains the norm in society, regardless of what a handful

01:26:17.120 --> 01:26:20.320
of individuals may or may not do.

01:26:20.960 --> 01:26:24.720
But on the other hand, again, with regard to the drug user,

01:26:24.720 --> 01:26:28.720
the more people who do those drugs, the more likely that becomes

01:26:28.720 --> 01:26:32.640
totally normal in society, for instance with marijuana.

01:26:32.640 --> 01:26:35.600
Probably one of the best examples we could give.

01:26:36.000 --> 01:26:43.200
Marijuana use used to be not only extremely fringe, but very,

01:26:43.200 --> 01:26:46.320
very negatively perceived in society.

01:26:46.320 --> 01:26:52.320
It was something done by the fringes of society, by degenerate criminals.

01:26:52.320 --> 01:26:55.760
One could advance the argument that is still the case.

01:26:55.760 --> 01:26:58.880
But it's not always these days, because it has become, by and

01:26:58.880 --> 01:27:04.880
large, normalized among large segments of the population, because those who have

01:27:04.880 --> 01:27:09.440
used the drug has successfully championed the argument, no, no, this is

01:27:09.440 --> 01:27:11.600
a totally normal, it's a fine thing.

01:27:11.600 --> 01:27:15.760
Perhaps that should have been taken With a bit with a bit

01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:20.880
larger grain of salt, that these individuals advancing this argument, well perhaps

01:27:20.880 --> 01:27:24.640
they have some mercenary interest.

01:27:24.640 --> 01:27:29.280
They have some reason for making the argument they are making, for

01:27:29.280 --> 01:27:32.080
advancing the things they are advancing.

01:27:32.080 --> 01:27:35.840
They have a conflict of interests, and perhaps what they're saying should

01:27:35.840 --> 01:27:41.840
be discounted at the very least, and potentially simply ignored.

01:27:41.840 --> 01:27:45.200
I won't go into the the depths of it as it were,

01:27:45.200 --> 01:27:50.320
but this is obviously directly analogous to what has happened with promiscuity

01:27:50.320 --> 01:27:52.720
in our society since about the sixties.

01:27:54.080 --> 01:27:59.360
I do want to give you another tool when assessing these matters

01:27:59.520 --> 01:28:06.800
because there is a specific subset of questions that are different in

01:28:07.680 --> 01:28:11.520
really in kind, but sort of in degree as well.

01:28:11.520 --> 01:28:16.160
It really is difference in kind is what we're getting at here.

01:28:16.160 --> 01:28:22.640
When dealing with specifically Christian issues and I mean core Christian doctrines

01:28:22.640 --> 01:28:22.960
on this.

01:28:22.960 --> 01:28:25.360
I don't mean the color of candles or whatever.

01:28:25.360 --> 01:28:28.880
I don't care if you use purple, blue candles, pink.

01:28:28.880 --> 01:28:31.120
Someone will be mad at me because of that.

01:28:31.120 --> 01:28:33.360
But it that stuff ultimately doesn't matter that much.

01:28:33.360 --> 01:28:38.000
It's important for good order, it's not essential to salvation.

01:28:38.000 --> 01:28:43.680
You're not going to hell because you use the wrong candle colour.

01:28:43.680 --> 01:28:48.240
But when you are assessing Using someone's argument, there is a difference

01:28:48.240 --> 01:28:53.440
between eternal truth and temporal goods.

01:28:53.440 --> 01:28:58.880
Someone who has an interest in temporal goods is really the subject

01:28:58.960 --> 01:29:02.560
we are discussing in this episode.

01:29:02.560 --> 01:29:06.160
Because if you have a financial stake in the outcome, or you

01:29:06.160 --> 01:29:11.280
have an interest with regard to your choice of wife, and therefore

01:29:11.280 --> 01:29:12.720
your children.

01:29:12.720 --> 01:29:14.240
These are temporal.

01:29:14.240 --> 01:29:18.240
Obviously, also, there's an eternal aspect there when you're dealing with human

01:29:18.240 --> 01:29:23.280
souls, but we're talking about temporal goods for most of these issues.

01:29:23.280 --> 01:29:27.600
There is a difference when you are speaking about eternal truth.

01:29:27.600 --> 01:29:31.680
And so, for instance, if you have that conflict of interest with

01:29:31.680 --> 01:29:36.480
regard to your wife and your children, your financial position, your afterwork

01:29:36.480 --> 01:29:41.760
activities, whatever it happens to be, that is something that should be

01:29:41.760 --> 01:29:48.640
factored in and weighed against your arguments because you have that interest

01:29:48.640 --> 01:29:49.680
in the outcome.

01:29:49.680 --> 01:29:53.120
You have that interest, that bias in favor of the things that

01:29:53.120 --> 01:29:53.840
you are arguing.

01:29:53.840 --> 01:29:57.600
Again, it doesn't mean that you are necessarily a liar or that

01:29:57.600 --> 01:29:59.520
you are misleading.

01:29:59.520 --> 01:30:03.840
It simply means that it factors into the equation in weighing the

01:30:03.840 --> 01:30:07.680
weight, in figuring out how much weight should be assigned to your

01:30:07.680 --> 01:30:10.560
argument, to you as a witness.

01:30:10.560 --> 01:30:16.880
This is not directly equivalent to matters dealing with eternal truth.

01:30:17.520 --> 01:30:21.200
This comes with a caveat because it has to.

01:30:21.200 --> 01:30:26.960
There are those who argue for certain positions with regard to religion,

01:30:26.960 --> 01:30:31.600
specifically Christianity, obviously, because this is a Christian podcast.

01:30:31.600 --> 01:30:35.840
But there are those who argue for their positions simply due to

01:30:35.840 --> 01:30:43.520
a mercenary belief, a mercenary adherence to their own team.

01:30:43.520 --> 01:30:44.000
And so

01:30:45.520 --> 01:30:49.680
I'll decline to give any specific denomination or tradition as the example

01:30:49.680 --> 01:30:54.400
for this one, but if you believe X with regard to the

01:30:54.400 --> 01:30:58.000
Christian religion, and you believe that X is a core doctrine in

01:30:58.000 --> 01:30:59.680
the Christian religion.

01:30:59.680 --> 01:31:03.200
But you believe that because it is what your tradition says, and

01:31:03.200 --> 01:31:07.040
the only reason for which you are arguing for

01:31:08.160 --> 01:31:11.760
is because it is part of your tradition.

01:31:11.760 --> 01:31:15.760
So you're just arguing for team colors, is what I'm saying essentially.

01:31:15.760 --> 01:31:18.640
This is one of those few places where a sports metaphor is

01:31:18.640 --> 01:31:20.480
actually important and actually works.

01:31:20.480 --> 01:31:23.600
If you're arguing for your team because it's your team and not

01:31:23.600 --> 01:31:26.720
because it's true, that is not what I am saying here.

01:31:26.720 --> 01:31:27.600
That is a different thing.

01:31:27.600 --> 01:31:29.440
That is a mercenary approach.

01:31:29.440 --> 01:31:33.040
That person should still be assessed according to what we're saying in

01:31:33.040 --> 01:31:36.560
the rest of this episode, according to wisdom, according to the bias,

01:31:36.560 --> 01:31:38.960
the conflict of interest.

01:31:38.960 --> 01:31:44.960
But someone who is arguing for eternal truth, truth for the sake

01:31:44.960 --> 01:31:48.720
of truth, not because and here I'll give an example, not because

01:31:48.720 --> 01:31:50.960
we're Lutheran, for instance.

01:31:50.960 --> 01:31:55.120
We do not argue that baptism saves you.

01:31:55.120 --> 01:31:59.200
We do not argue for the real presence of Christ in the

01:31:59.200 --> 01:32:02.960
sacrament because we're Lutheran.

01:32:02.960 --> 01:32:07.440
If we argued those things because we are Lutheran, that would be

01:32:07.680 --> 01:32:10.640
biased. That would be a conflict.

01:32:10.640 --> 01:32:13.520
You should assess that the same way as you would anything else

01:32:13.600 --> 01:32:16.640
we've discussed in this episode and so many things that we will

01:32:16.640 --> 01:32:20.320
not discuss in this episode because there are so many examples.

01:32:20.320 --> 01:32:24.640
But if we are doing it because we firmly believe that it

01:32:24.640 --> 01:32:26.400
is eternal truth.

01:32:26.400 --> 01:32:28.640
That is a different thing.

01:32:28.640 --> 01:32:33.120
I don't stand, really, in any concrete sense, as it were, to

01:32:33.120 --> 01:32:38.640
gain or lose anything with regard to you believing what I say

01:32:38.640 --> 01:32:40.800
about the sacraments.

01:32:40.800 --> 01:32:44.800
Now, yes, there's the consideration of being a truthful teacher, there's the

01:32:44.800 --> 01:32:47.920
consideration of the stricter judgment, all these various things.

01:32:47.920 --> 01:32:50.240
But those considerations aren't a conflict.

01:32:50.240 --> 01:32:52.800
There's no bias there.

01:32:52.800 --> 01:32:57.280
Being true to God and his things is different in kind from

01:32:57.280 --> 01:33:04.720
a financial interest or something similar like that, some again temporal good.

01:33:04.720 --> 01:33:07.760
And so And so this is another aspect with regard to these

01:33:07.760 --> 01:33:10.400
Christian arguments, we have to take this into account.

01:33:10.400 --> 01:33:13.520
If someone is making the mercenary argument, oh well I have a

01:33:13.520 --> 01:33:17.360
red flag and so I'm arguing for the red team, that's the

01:33:17.360 --> 01:33:20.160
same sort of thing as I have a financial stake in Apple,

01:33:20.160 --> 01:33:21.760
so I'm arguing for Apple.

01:33:21.760 --> 01:33:23.840
I'm arguing against regulating them.

01:33:23.840 --> 01:33:26.080
I have a wife who is of another race, and so I'm

01:33:26.080 --> 01:33:29.760
arguing that we can't possibly make miscegenation illegal again.

01:33:29.760 --> 01:33:31.440
Whatever it happens to be.

01:33:31.680 --> 01:33:36.960
But if I'm arguing Baptism now saves you, because it's what Scripture

01:33:36.960 --> 01:33:39.680
says, it's what I firmly believe.

01:33:39.680 --> 01:33:41.840
That is not a mercenary argument.

01:33:41.840 --> 01:33:46.800
That is not bias, that is not conflict That is a fundamentally

01:33:46.800 --> 01:33:49.120
different thing that is different in kind.

01:33:49.120 --> 01:33:52.320
And so it's just important to keep that in mind because when

01:33:52.320 --> 01:33:56.960
we're talking about political issues, that's not really on the table.

01:33:56.960 --> 01:34:00.560
When we're talking about religious issues, that could very well be on

01:34:00.560 --> 01:34:01.840
the table.

01:34:01.840 --> 01:34:04.560
And so you have to discern, this is again a question of

01:34:04.560 --> 01:34:08.400
wisdom, you have to discern if that person is making the mercenary

01:34:08.400 --> 01:34:15.200
argument for his team team or the truly sincere argument for a

01:34:15.200 --> 01:34:19.600
belief about the central truths of the Christian faith, about the core

01:34:19.600 --> 01:34:22.240
beliefs of our religion.

01:34:22.240 --> 01:34:24.720
Because those are two very different things.

01:34:24.720 --> 01:34:29.920
And you should treat the arguments of the men making those sorts

01:34:29.920 --> 01:34:33.120
of arguments, of the men taking those sorts of approaches, you should

01:34:33.120 --> 01:34:36.480
treat them differently because they are not identical.

01:34:36.640 --> 01:34:43.120
The mercenary argument and the true argument, the convinced argument, are fundamentally

01:34:43.120 --> 01:34:44.160
different things.

01:34:44.160 --> 01:34:47.600
And it is only that mercenary argument that would be subject to

01:34:47.600 --> 01:34:52.080
the sort of analysis that we are making in this episode.

01:34:52.080 --> 01:34:56.080
Now, of course, that comes again with a caveat, because this is

01:34:56.080 --> 01:34:56.960
a matter of wisdom.

01:34:56.960 --> 01:35:00.400
There's going to be nuance, there's going to be assessments you have

01:35:00.400 --> 01:35:00.640
to do.

01:35:00.640 --> 01:35:03.920
We can't give you black and white rules, as we have already

01:35:03.920 --> 01:35:11.360
said. The man who makes what he believes to be a

01:35:11.360 --> 01:35:17.440
firmly convinced argument May in fact be deluding himself.

01:35:17.440 --> 01:35:19.520
You have to make that assessment.

01:35:19.520 --> 01:35:22.560
That is the case across the board here.

01:35:22.560 --> 01:35:27.920
There are men who are making arguments that they believe, firmly believe

01:35:28.320 --> 01:35:32.320
to be the truth, but they have deluded themselves because of their

01:35:32.320 --> 01:35:35.680
personal stake, because of their bias, because of their interest in the

01:35:35.680 --> 01:35:40.480
outcome. And so you have to assess whether or not that is

01:35:40.480 --> 01:35:44.080
the case with regard to a given man on a given subject.

01:35:44.080 --> 01:35:48.320
There's no getting away from this fundamental fact that these are questions

01:35:48.320 --> 01:35:49.440
of wisdom.

01:35:49.440 --> 01:35:51.680
You are going to have to apply the gifts that God is

01:35:51.680 --> 01:35:55.440
giving Given you in order to make these calls.

01:35:55.360 --> 01:35:59.520
We are laying out the framework for how to approach these things.

01:35:59.520 --> 01:36:03.440
We are laying out the framework for how you determine if certain

01:36:03.440 --> 01:36:06.480
men are given a seat at the table or not.

01:36:06.880 --> 01:36:10.320
And then, for those men at the table, how you assess the

01:36:10.320 --> 01:36:13.360
things they say.

01:36:13.360 --> 01:36:17.760
But ultimately, this is something each man has to do for himself,

01:36:17.760 --> 01:36:20.480
with regard to the issues on which he has to make these

01:36:21.120 --> 01:36:24.480
calls. We can't make these decisions for you.

01:36:24.480 --> 01:36:28.320
We can't even decide for you how much you trust us.

01:36:28.320 --> 01:36:30.000
You have to decide that.

01:36:30.000 --> 01:36:32.960
It's one of the reasons that we constantly tell you to assess

01:36:32.960 --> 01:36:35.440
the things we've said.

01:36:35.440 --> 01:36:38.800
Look at what we've done, look at what we've said, look at

01:36:38.800 --> 01:36:42.720
Scripture when Scripture is relevant to these things, which is very often

01:36:42.720 --> 01:36:44.240
the case, of course.

01:36:44.960 --> 01:36:47.280
You have to make these decisions yourself.

01:36:47.280 --> 01:36:51.120
We cannot make them for you, and neither can anyone else.

01:36:51.120 --> 01:36:54.160
Now, of course, there's a difference for our female listeners because, of

01:36:54.160 --> 01:36:56.080
course, you have a head.

01:36:56.080 --> 01:36:59.040
He gets to make many of these decisions, and it is incumbent

01:36:59.040 --> 01:37:02.320
on you to follow him, as Scripture says, submit to your husband

01:37:02.400 --> 01:37:04.320
in all things as to the Lord.

01:37:04.320 --> 01:37:06.560
So there's a difference there, but when I am speaking to the

01:37:06.560 --> 01:37:11.360
men specifically, you really don't have an out.

01:37:11.360 --> 01:37:15.200
Yes, you can follow the leaders who have been put over you.

01:37:15.200 --> 01:37:18.560
Yes, you can trust the men that God has put in offices

01:37:18.560 --> 01:37:21.200
of rightful authority.

01:37:21.200 --> 01:37:23.280
But that does not absolve you.

01:37:23.600 --> 01:37:27.040
Of the necessity of making these sorts of wisdom calls, at least

01:37:27.120 --> 01:37:29.520
not totally.

01:37:29.520 --> 01:37:32.880
This is part of the reality of this life.

01:37:32.880 --> 01:37:35.600
You have to make wisdom calls.

01:37:35.600 --> 01:37:38.080
You have to make assessments.

01:37:38.160 --> 01:37:42.080
The point of this episode is to help equip you with the

01:37:42.080 --> 01:37:47.360
tools you need to assess the testimony of other men, to assess

01:37:47.360 --> 01:37:50.320
their arguments, to assess the things they say.

01:37:50.320 --> 01:37:54.480
Because it's not just a matter of the concrete argument itself.

01:37:54.480 --> 01:37:58.320
Yes, that should often be paramount.

01:37:58.320 --> 01:38:03.360
In fact, that should probably typically, in the overwhelming majority of cases,

01:38:03.360 --> 01:38:04.240
be paramount.

01:38:04.240 --> 01:38:08.720
You assess the argument the man is making.

01:38:08.720 --> 01:38:12.320
But you also have to assess the man making the argument.

01:38:12.320 --> 01:38:16.720
It's the genealogy of ideas, because it's very often the genealogy of

01:38:16.720 --> 01:38:21.520
ideas. Because the man making the argument is probably making it in

01:38:21.520 --> 01:38:27.120
a certain way because of his background, because of his interests, because

01:38:27.120 --> 01:38:28.800
of things that are pertinent to him.

01:38:28.800 --> 01:38:31.920
It may even be subconscious.

01:38:31.920 --> 01:38:34.880
Because who and what you are is not entirely a matter of

01:38:34.880 --> 01:38:36.480
your conscious decisions.

01:38:36.480 --> 01:38:38.080
We all know that.

01:38:38.080 --> 01:38:41.360
You're going to use certain words, you're going to use certain constructions

01:38:41.440 --> 01:38:45.760
Instructions, some of us have accents, there are certain things that are

01:38:45.760 --> 01:38:48.960
part of you that you cannot avoid.

01:38:48.960 --> 01:38:52.320
The same thing is true with every other man.

01:38:52.320 --> 01:38:56.640
And so even if he is making what he firmly believes to

01:38:56.640 --> 01:38:59.920
be an objective argument, look at the words he's using, look at

01:38:59.920 --> 01:39:03.840
the way he's constructing it, look at the presuppositions that went into

01:39:03.840 --> 01:39:08.560
it, you have to make that wisdom call, on how you assess

01:39:08.560 --> 01:39:12.240
the argument, and in part that is based on how you assess

01:39:12.240 --> 01:39:14.640
the man advancing the argument.

01:39:14.640 --> 01:39:20.400
These things are not unrelated, they're not distinct, they're not disconnected.

01:39:21.040 --> 01:39:25.760
Human beings are not robots and arguments are not conjured out of

01:39:25.760 --> 01:39:27.360
thin air.

01:39:27.360 --> 01:39:31.280
They are constructed and presented by men, and those men have interests,

01:39:31.280 --> 01:39:35.760
they have biases, they have things in their lives that have led

01:39:35.760 --> 01:39:39.200
them to those conclusions, that have led them to formulate the arguments

01:39:39.200 --> 01:39:42.000
and the conclusions in the way that they have.

01:39:42.000 --> 01:39:46.640
And you as an audience, whether it's here or elsewhere, have to

01:39:46.640 --> 01:39:51.040
make those assessments for yourself.

01:39:51.360 --> 01:39:56.800
I want to present one last example of conflicted interest because it's

01:39:56.800 --> 01:39:59.600
one that just came up recently on X where a bunch of

01:39:59.600 --> 01:40:02.320
people got really mad at me for something that I said.

01:40:02.320 --> 01:40:05.120
And I want to lay out how this is such a clear

01:40:05.120 --> 01:40:06.240
example of

01:40:07.120 --> 01:40:13.040
the problems that arise when often people don't even understand their own

01:40:13.040 --> 01:40:18.400
biases. And if you don't understand that you're missing something, if you

01:40:18.400 --> 01:40:21.600
think that everything about you is just hunky-dory and you have everything

01:40:21.600 --> 01:40:25.920
figured out, but you actually have a glaring hole or omission in

01:40:25.920 --> 01:40:30.000
your knowledge or experience, you're going to make mistakes in the way

01:40:30.000 --> 01:40:34.560
you convey things that are a natural consequence of what you don't

01:40:34.560 --> 01:40:35.920
even know you don't have.

01:40:35.920 --> 01:40:38.080
It's the unknown unknown.

01:40:38.080 --> 01:40:41.840
So Jared Taylor recently got back on X.

01:40:41.920 --> 01:40:43.680
He was banned for years.

01:40:43.680 --> 01:40:49.040
He is has long been an advocate for whites as a race.

01:40:49.040 --> 01:40:51.600
He was born in Japan nineteen fifty one.

01:40:51.600 --> 01:40:54.880
His parents were Christian missionaries there, and he lived there until he

01:40:54.880 --> 01:40:56.080
was sixteen years old.

01:40:56.080 --> 01:40:58.240
So he was raised entirely in Japan.

01:40:58.240 --> 01:41:01.360
Now his family goes back as long as mine, over four hundred

01:41:01.360 --> 01:41:02.400
years ago.

01:41:02.560 --> 01:41:04.480
He's a founding stock American.

01:41:04.480 --> 01:41:06.000
He's an American.

01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:10.320
The point that I made online was a response to something that

01:41:10.320 --> 01:41:12.640
he said as soon as he got back on X.

01:41:12.640 --> 01:41:15.760
He did a video interview with a guy named Richard Hanya or

01:41:15.760 --> 01:41:19.840
something. He's just a a vile, repulsive, wicked man.

01:41:19.840 --> 01:41:22.400
One of the nastiest people on the internet.

01:41:22.400 --> 01:41:24.240
A true enemy of all of us.

01:41:24.240 --> 01:41:27.040
But no matter what you think of Stone Choir, he hates you.

01:41:27.040 --> 01:41:30.640
He is openly an enemy of everything that any anyone remotely on

01:41:30.640 --> 01:41:32.480
our side would like.

01:41:32.480 --> 01:41:34.800
Jared went on to talk to him about race and whatever.

01:41:34.800 --> 01:41:36.080
I didn't listen to the whole thing.

01:41:36.080 --> 01:41:40.960
I listened to the clip that came out of that where they

01:41:40.960 --> 01:41:48.000
were both laughing and saying derisive things about West Virginia.

01:41:48.000 --> 01:41:53.280
And Jared Taylor made a comment about West Virginia people obesity and

01:41:53.280 --> 01:41:55.360
tattoos and the stereotypical look.

01:41:55.360 --> 01:41:58.160
And he said that they're not, you know, the the elite human

01:41:58.160 --> 01:42:00.560
capital that we're talking about.

01:42:00.560 --> 01:42:05.600
And he went on to explain that despite Richard, the other guys

01:42:06.000 --> 01:42:12.000
despising of people in West Virginia, Jared's overall point was that well,

01:42:12.000 --> 01:42:13.280
they're still part of America.

01:42:13.280 --> 01:42:15.920
They're kind of the lowest tier and they have all these problems,

01:42:15.920 --> 01:42:17.920
but I love them and I want to help them.

01:42:17.920 --> 01:42:19.680
And it wasn't a bad sentiment.

01:42:19.680 --> 01:42:23.360
And he also wasn't wrong about the problems that people in West

01:42:23.360 --> 01:42:25.120
Virginia have.

01:42:25.120 --> 01:42:30.000
The problem that I had with what he said was born of

01:42:30.320 --> 01:42:32.000
his own biography.

01:42:32.000 --> 01:42:35.120
He didn't grow up in the U.S., he didn't have an American

01:42:35.120 --> 01:42:40.560
upbringing. He was brought up by Americans in Japan, eating Japanese food,

01:42:40.560 --> 01:42:45.200
speaking the Japanese language, living a Japanese lifestyle until he was a

01:42:45.200 --> 01:42:46.640
basically an adult.

01:42:47.120 --> 01:42:49.120
That doesn't mean that he's not an American.

01:42:49.120 --> 01:42:52.960
He has American roots, but it does mean he's less American than

01:42:52.960 --> 01:42:54.800
me in a very fundamental way.

01:42:54.800 --> 01:42:57.280
And less American than probably any of you.

01:42:57.280 --> 01:42:59.520
And this is what made people lose their minds, I would dare

01:42:59.520 --> 01:43:02.800
say that because he's such a profound advocate for white issues.

01:43:02.800 --> 01:43:04.160
Here's what I mean.

01:43:04.160 --> 01:43:06.800
I've said before that I am also the product of a mixed

01:43:06.800 --> 01:43:10.480
marriage. My dad is a Yankee going back over four hundred years

01:43:10.480 --> 01:43:11.520
in the North.

01:43:11.520 --> 01:43:15.280
My mom is a Tar heel, going back over four hundred years

01:43:15.280 --> 01:43:16.560
in the South.

01:43:16.560 --> 01:43:20.080
Both of them are almost all of their families except for my

01:43:20.080 --> 01:43:25.840
dad's paternal great grandfather, who came over from Germany in eighteen seventy.

01:43:25.840 --> 01:43:29.920
Everybody else was here before 1776, and three quarters of my ancestors

01:43:29.920 --> 01:43:34.160
were here by 1650 in both the North and the South.

01:43:34.160 --> 01:43:37.760
They met in Northeast Ohio, they got married, she moved up there

01:43:37.760 --> 01:43:39.200
from North Carolina.

01:43:39.200 --> 01:43:41.920
She was raised in Ash County, which is one of the places

01:43:41.920 --> 01:43:44.480
that was recently obliterated by that hurricane.

01:43:44.640 --> 01:43:45.360
I've been there.

01:43:45.360 --> 01:43:47.360
I visited my grandfather's grave there.

01:43:47.360 --> 01:43:50.640
Up on a mountaintop, there's a little family cemetery.

01:43:50.640 --> 01:43:54.560
My roots go back over three hundred years in Ash County.

01:43:54.560 --> 01:43:56.640
And yet I was raised in the North.

01:43:56.640 --> 01:44:00.160
I am functionally a Yankee, but I'm fifty-fifty.

01:44:00.160 --> 01:44:04.080
Biologically, historically, I'm half and half.

01:44:04.480 --> 01:44:06.640
I was raised as a northerner.

01:44:06.640 --> 01:44:07.680
I am a northerner.

01:44:07.680 --> 01:44:08.960
There's no doubt about that.

01:44:08.960 --> 01:44:16.000
My mentality, my speech patterns, my experiences are all fundamentally from the

01:44:16.000 --> 01:44:20.320
North. If I were to go to Ash County, North Carolina, if

01:44:20.320 --> 01:44:22.960
I were to move there, move to some of the exact same

01:44:22.960 --> 01:44:26.720
places that my family, my kin, lived for over three centuries in

01:44:26.720 --> 01:44:30.880
that exact place, I would still be a foreigner there.

01:44:30.880 --> 01:44:32.880
I would still be an alien.

01:44:32.880 --> 01:44:34.960
Because I was not raised there.

01:44:34.960 --> 01:44:39.040
Because both blood and soil count together.

01:44:39.040 --> 01:44:42.560
It is not in opposition to each other, but both are necessary.

01:44:42.560 --> 01:44:45.600
And so what this has to do with conflict of interest is

01:44:45.600 --> 01:44:51.680
that I am necessarily conflicted as half Yankee and half Confederate, half

01:44:51.680 --> 01:44:56.400
Southern. Anytime there's an argument between those two sides, I find it

01:44:56.400 --> 01:45:00.880
disgusting that people are still relitigating the war between the states over

01:45:00.880 --> 01:45:02.960
a hundred and however many years ago.

01:45:02.960 --> 01:45:04.640
It's absurd.

01:45:04.640 --> 01:45:06.240
Yes, it was despicable.

01:45:06.240 --> 01:45:07.040
It was evil.

01:45:07.040 --> 01:45:09.360
I could go on for hours about how much I hate what

01:45:09.360 --> 01:45:11.440
the North did in that circumstance.

01:45:11.440 --> 01:45:13.360
It was republican.

01:45:13.360 --> 01:45:16.160
I could convince people who already think they hate the North to

01:45:16.160 --> 01:45:19.120
hate the North even more after I got done with you.

01:45:19.120 --> 01:45:24.000
And yet when someone starts screaming about Yankees being terrible people and

01:45:24.000 --> 01:45:28.560
the real problem with the world, or someone says what Jared Taylor

01:45:28.560 --> 01:45:33.760
said, where he was dismissive and derisive and said some nasty things

01:45:33.760 --> 01:45:38.880
about people in West Virginia, sneering with Richard Hanya, who hates those

01:45:38.880 --> 01:45:42.240
people. And he was laughing and shucking and driving along with him.

01:45:42.240 --> 01:45:44.720
It was a chummy moment for them together.

01:45:44.720 --> 01:45:50.080
The sin that Jared Taylor committed in that is what was mentioned

01:45:50.080 --> 01:45:51.440
in The Godfather.

01:45:51.440 --> 01:45:54.640
When Michael Corleone said, Fredo, you're my older brother and I love

01:45:54.640 --> 01:45:57.920
you, but don't ever take sides with anyone against the family again,

01:45:57.920 --> 01:46:00.080
ever. That's what Jared did.

01:46:00.080 --> 01:46:02.000
He took sides against the family.

01:46:02.000 --> 01:46:05.680
It wasn't that the people in West Virginia don't have serious problems.

01:46:05.680 --> 01:46:06.400
But you know what?

01:46:06.640 --> 01:46:09.920
They're the same problems that poor Americans have in every part of

01:46:09.920 --> 01:46:10.960
the country.

01:46:10.960 --> 01:46:13.760
Every time I go grocery shopping, if I go at the wrong

01:46:13.760 --> 01:46:19.040
time of day, I see people that are just destitute as human

01:46:19.040 --> 01:46:21.520
beings. I don't simply mean poverty.

01:46:21.520 --> 01:46:26.160
I mean they're exactly the fat, slovenly people have clearly just not

01:46:26.160 --> 01:46:30.160
only given up hope on having i what I would consider a

01:46:30.160 --> 01:46:33.600
dignified life, but they have no concept of it.

01:46:33.600 --> 01:46:35.040
And this is in New England.

01:46:35.040 --> 01:46:39.440
This is like the Yankeest Yankee place imaginable, exactly the same type

01:46:39.440 --> 01:46:44.240
of people that Jared Taylor was despising in West Virginia.

01:46:44.240 --> 01:46:47.200
And I feel the same way that he does about that.

01:46:47.200 --> 01:46:49.120
I want the best for those people.

01:46:49.120 --> 01:46:51.040
I want them to have better lives.

01:46:51.040 --> 01:46:54.400
And it makes me sad and miserable when I see that that

01:46:54.400 --> 01:46:55.760
it seems hopeless.

01:46:55.760 --> 01:46:57.840
I don't know what I can do to help.

01:46:57.840 --> 01:47:02.800
The difference between me seeing that and being disgusted by it, and

01:47:02.800 --> 01:47:06.080
Jared Taylor seeing it and being disgusted by it, is that he

01:47:06.080 --> 01:47:10.000
got online and he talked about it outside of the family with

01:47:10.000 --> 01:47:11.280
someone who hates us.

01:47:11.280 --> 01:47:13.840
Richard Hanya hates those people.

01:47:13.840 --> 01:47:16.640
And for Jared to side with him and to say, yeah, they're

01:47:16.640 --> 01:47:20.160
disgusting, but I still love them, that is only something that would

01:47:20.160 --> 01:47:22.560
have happened because he was raised overseas.

01:47:22.560 --> 01:47:25.840
He has no notion of the fact that that is an impermissible

01:47:25.840 --> 01:47:28.640
thing to do in this country, and for anyone to do it

01:47:28.720 --> 01:47:32.640
in either direction, north or south, there's a conflict of interest that

01:47:32.640 --> 01:47:38.400
occurs in his case by omission, by having no American upbringing.

01:47:38.400 --> 01:47:42.800
He is fundamentally less American because he was raised in Japan, just

01:47:42.800 --> 01:47:46.080
as I am fundamentally less Southern because I was raised in the

01:47:46.080 --> 01:47:48.880
North. I can't show up in Ash County and say, Hi, I'm

01:47:48.880 --> 01:47:49.680
a hillbilly.

01:47:49.680 --> 01:47:51.120
I'm a tar heel just like all you.

01:47:51.120 --> 01:47:52.480
I'm here for the hoot nanny.

01:47:52.480 --> 01:47:53.680
Like it would be obscene.

01:47:53.680 --> 01:47:54.800
It would be offensive.

01:47:54.800 --> 01:47:57.040
For me even to say that I'm sure is ticked some people

01:47:57.040 --> 01:47:59.360
off. I don't even know how to parody that.

01:47:59.360 --> 01:48:02.720
And it's insulting for me to try because despite the fact that

01:48:02.720 --> 01:48:05.440
those are my roots and those are my people going back and

01:48:05.440 --> 01:48:08.960
I do have profound affection for them, I am not of them

01:48:08.960 --> 01:48:11.600
in the same way as someone who lived there.

01:48:11.600 --> 01:48:13.440
I can't say that I'm a tar heel.

01:48:13.440 --> 01:48:16.640
I can't say I'm a southerner, despite that being half of my

01:48:16.640 --> 01:48:22.400
heritage. By blood, by history, because I was not raised there.

01:48:22.400 --> 01:48:25.120
The soil might be in my blood, and it certainly is.

01:48:25.120 --> 01:48:27.680
The place where I live now looks exactly like where my mom

01:48:27.840 --> 01:48:29.760
grew up, except that it snows a lot.

01:48:29.760 --> 01:48:30.880
That's the only difference.

01:48:30.880 --> 01:48:33.600
And I'm not suited for North Carolina weather.

01:48:33.600 --> 01:48:37.760
I am very much a northern latitude kind of man.

01:48:37.760 --> 01:48:41.120
I would never say those things that he said in public, even

01:48:41.120 --> 01:48:45.680
if I think them, because it's detrimental to the family.

01:48:45.680 --> 01:48:49.840
It's going against the family for me as an American to despise

01:48:49.840 --> 01:48:53.600
someone in West Virginia or my neighbor here in New England to

01:48:53.600 --> 01:48:57.200
despise them because of whatever is wrong with the course of their

01:48:57.200 --> 01:49:00.000
lives. When I see that at the grocery store, I don't come

01:49:00.000 --> 01:49:01.440
home and tweet about it.

01:49:01.440 --> 01:49:04.320
I don't come home and say you wouldn't believe the disgusting people

01:49:04.320 --> 01:49:06.000
I saw at the store today.

01:49:06.000 --> 01:49:07.440
I don't think that.

01:49:07.440 --> 01:49:10.480
I think it's disgusting, but it's a sense of pity.

01:49:10.480 --> 01:49:12.800
But I'm not going to use it as an example to score

01:49:12.800 --> 01:49:16.000
points with people who hate those people because I don't hate them

01:49:16.000 --> 01:49:20.080
and I know that Jared doesn't fundamentally either, but what he's missing

01:49:20.080 --> 01:49:25.200
out on is the social rule that you don't do that.

01:49:25.200 --> 01:49:27.920
If I were to go to Japan, I'd be breaking rules left

01:49:27.920 --> 01:49:29.680
and right without having any idea.

01:49:29.680 --> 01:49:31.520
I don't know the culture.

01:49:31.520 --> 01:49:33.760
I don't know the rules.

01:49:33.760 --> 01:49:36.000
He would be able to do all sorts of things correctly that

01:49:36.000 --> 01:49:37.280
I would do incorrectly.

01:49:37.280 --> 01:49:40.080
I would be a disgusting gaijen by doing a bunch of stuff

01:49:40.080 --> 01:49:42.720
that are just wildly inappropriate and I have no idea.

01:49:42.720 --> 01:49:44.880
I know I'm doing thing wrong.

01:49:44.880 --> 01:49:48.640
It's ignorance by lacking the experience.

01:49:48.640 --> 01:49:51.280
The lived experience that Corey talked about earlier.

01:49:51.280 --> 01:49:53.760
We it comes up occasionally because it's a real thing.

01:49:53.760 --> 01:49:55.600
I have the lived experience of a Yankee.

01:49:55.600 --> 01:49:57.280
I can't pretend to be a southerner.

01:49:57.600 --> 01:50:00.160
That doesn't mean the Southerners aren't American.

01:50:00.160 --> 01:50:04.160
And so I personally am a living conflict of interest when it

01:50:04.160 --> 01:50:08.720
comes to North versus South fights, because that's they're all my people.

01:50:08.720 --> 01:50:14.400
I'm the perfect doppelganger of the globalist plan for the United States.

01:50:14.400 --> 01:50:18.400
I'm a perfect synthesis of two founding stock families, one from the

01:50:18.400 --> 01:50:19.680
north, one from the south.

01:50:19.680 --> 01:50:21.680
And so I don't want to see anybody fight.

01:50:21.680 --> 01:50:24.880
And so that's a completely a biased matter for me.

01:50:24.880 --> 01:50:28.000
It's a complete conflict of interest for me to yell on one

01:50:28.000 --> 01:50:30.480
hand at people in the South and say, cut it out, quit

01:50:30.480 --> 01:50:32.800
abusing Yankees and calling them Yankees.

01:50:32.800 --> 01:50:33.600
It's bizarre.

01:50:33.600 --> 01:50:36.480
There's not a single person in the North that thinks Yankee.

01:50:36.480 --> 01:50:38.640
It's such a tell that someone uses that word.

01:50:38.720 --> 01:50:40.000
It's always a slur.

01:50:40.000 --> 01:50:42.000
It's never something that's proud.

01:50:42.000 --> 01:50:45.520
And I feel exactly the same way when Northerners abuse Southerners, saying

01:50:45.520 --> 01:50:49.920
things like Jared said to Richard, even though most of what he

01:50:49.920 --> 01:50:52.560
said was true, wasn't the question of whether it was true or

01:50:52.560 --> 01:50:55.520
false. It was a matter of going against the family.

01:50:55.520 --> 01:50:57.600
And he doesn't see them as family.

01:50:57.680 --> 01:50:59.760
I think one of the reasons that Jared has had such a

01:50:59.760 --> 01:51:04.400
profound positive effect on much of the discourse is that his unique

01:51:04.400 --> 01:51:07.760
upbringing in Japan where he was completely alienated, like other than his

01:51:07.760 --> 01:51:11.600
parents, I would imagine he saw virtually no white people ever.

01:51:11.600 --> 01:51:16.400
And so he has a particular appreciation for American culture that we're

01:51:16.400 --> 01:51:18.640
deprived of because we're the fish in the water.

01:51:18.640 --> 01:51:21.280
We don't know what water is because we just have it.

01:51:21.280 --> 01:51:23.680
He has lived a life without water growing up.

01:51:23.680 --> 01:51:27.360
And so he can look and then come here and experience and

01:51:27.360 --> 01:51:30.800
describe things to us in ways that we just don't even see.

01:51:30.800 --> 01:51:32.240
That's been very valuable.

01:51:32.240 --> 01:51:36.640
I'm not bad mouthing the man by pointing out that he went

01:51:36.640 --> 01:51:40.480
against the family when he said something disgusting to a person who

01:51:40.480 --> 01:51:43.520
hates those people, who hates our people.

01:51:43.520 --> 01:51:46.880
And if you think that West Virginians aren't our people, then I

01:51:46.880 --> 01:51:47.920
don't know what you're doing.

01:51:47.920 --> 01:51:51.920
It was obviously a discussion inside America probably tended to fifteen percent

01:51:51.920 --> 01:51:54.000
of our audiences outside of America.

01:51:54.000 --> 01:51:56.320
And you know, like it's it's an American podcast.

01:51:56.320 --> 01:51:57.440
I it's not insulting.

01:51:57.600 --> 01:52:00.160
I've said before, like whatever you are, be the best you can

01:52:00.160 --> 01:52:03.120
be. I don't know how to tell anyone else anywhere else how

01:52:03.120 --> 01:52:03.760
to live.

01:52:03.760 --> 01:52:06.240
I would never tell the Japanese, here's how to be a better

01:52:06.240 --> 01:52:07.040
Japanese person.

01:52:07.040 --> 01:52:08.080
I have no idea.

01:52:08.080 --> 01:52:10.960
I think it's commendable for them to try, but I wouldn't know

01:52:11.200 --> 01:52:11.920
where to begin.

01:52:11.920 --> 01:52:14.240
And it would be obscene for me to try.

01:52:14.240 --> 01:52:15.840
Because the conflict of interest there would be.

01:52:15.840 --> 01:52:17.200
I just I got no clue.

01:52:17.200 --> 01:52:19.520
The conflict is my ignorance.

01:52:19.520 --> 01:52:24.160
Jared doesn't know that he has a massive blind spot by not

01:52:24.160 --> 01:52:26.640
having been raised as an American.

01:52:26.640 --> 01:52:28.160
It's not a huge insult.

01:52:28.160 --> 01:52:30.640
The world is full of people who weren't raised as Americans, and

01:52:30.640 --> 01:52:33.360
there are lots of things about being raised American that make us

01:52:33.360 --> 01:52:35.600
terrible. We've been misraised.

01:52:35.600 --> 01:52:38.000
That's so much of what we talk about on Stone Choirs.

01:52:38.000 --> 01:52:41.520
Like, look, these are generational sins that we're inheriting because of the

01:52:41.680 --> 01:52:45.760
failures of previous generations to raise the next ones correctly.

01:52:45.760 --> 01:52:48.320
So when I say he wasn't raised as an American, it's not

01:52:48.320 --> 01:52:53.040
a glowing endorsement of the way I was raised as a generation.

01:52:53.040 --> 01:52:55.040
It's just saying that there's something missing.

01:52:55.040 --> 01:52:58.160
Just like there's something missing for me that I wasn't raised in

01:52:58.160 --> 01:52:59.840
Ash County, North Carolina.

01:52:59.840 --> 01:53:01.440
I couldn't begin to know what that was like.

01:53:01.440 --> 01:53:04.080
I could read books, I could imagine, but that'd just be it.

01:53:04.080 --> 01:53:05.520
It'd be imagination.

01:53:05.520 --> 01:53:09.040
In the absence of direct experience for certain things, sometimes you just

01:53:09.040 --> 01:53:10.960
have to know to shut up.

01:53:10.960 --> 01:53:13.760
You know, Corey mentioned earlier that there are a lot of guys

01:53:13.760 --> 01:53:17.520
who listen to us who are mixed race and we make clear

01:53:17.520 --> 01:53:19.680
to them when we talk to them personally, and I hope that

01:53:19.680 --> 01:53:22.240
we make clear online, we don't think they're disgusting.

01:53:22.240 --> 01:53:24.480
We don't think there's something wrong with them.

01:53:24.480 --> 01:53:27.760
The their parents made a decision that they're now forced to live

01:53:27.760 --> 01:53:29.600
with. Just as I am.

01:53:29.600 --> 01:53:33.360
My northern father married my southern mother, and then when we would

01:53:33.360 --> 01:53:36.560
visit my southern family, they made it very clear to me that

01:53:36.560 --> 01:53:38.560
there was something wrong with me that I was being raised as

01:53:38.560 --> 01:53:39.280
a Yankee.

01:53:39.280 --> 01:53:41.520
I heard all this stuff as like a seven and eight year

01:53:41.520 --> 01:53:43.120
old. I had no idea what was going on.

01:53:43.120 --> 01:53:44.800
Like I was just going to visit family.

01:53:44.800 --> 01:53:46.960
We basically had no family nearby.

01:53:46.960 --> 01:53:49.280
So it was a treat to go down there on very long

01:53:49.280 --> 01:53:53.200
car rides and then see people and they were adamant that there

01:53:53.200 --> 01:53:55.680
was something wrong with me because I was a Yankee.

01:53:55.680 --> 01:53:56.640
I didn't understand it.

01:53:56.640 --> 01:53:57.840
Like I'm just your family.

01:53:57.840 --> 01:53:58.960
I don't know what's going on.

01:53:58.960 --> 01:54:01.760
Like they talk differently, but to me, there was nothing more to

01:54:01.760 --> 01:54:04.640
it. It was only in the last few years that I understood

01:54:04.640 --> 01:54:08.480
why they were so concerned and why they were upset about it.

01:54:08.480 --> 01:54:13.600
They were concerned that their sister's son, their nephew, was being raised

01:54:13.920 --> 01:54:14.480
a Yankee.

01:54:14.480 --> 01:54:15.840
They thought it was disgusting.

01:54:15.840 --> 01:54:16.960
And they made it clear to me.

01:54:16.960 --> 01:54:19.120
And in love, like they weren't abusive.

01:54:19.120 --> 01:54:20.480
It wasn't torment or anything.

01:54:20.480 --> 01:54:23.360
They were just they wanted me the best that I could possibly

01:54:23.360 --> 01:54:26.320
be. And they knew that that couldn't happen in the north.

01:54:26.320 --> 01:54:29.200
That was their view as southerners.

01:54:29.200 --> 01:54:33.600
So I have lived some small sense of the conflicted life of

01:54:33.600 --> 01:54:35.120
someone who's mixed race.

01:54:35.120 --> 01:54:36.080
Not remotely the same.

01:54:36.080 --> 01:54:38.320
I'm not trying to say I get your suffering.

01:54:38.320 --> 01:54:41.520
But like even just that one small thing made me feel alienated.

01:54:41.520 --> 01:54:43.840
I can't imagine what it's like if you could look at me

01:54:43.840 --> 01:54:46.320
and tell that you're half one thing or half another, that you

01:54:46.320 --> 01:54:50.480
don't actually belong in a way that everyone else does.

01:54:50.480 --> 01:54:51.760
That stinks.

01:54:51.760 --> 01:54:55.040
And so the reason that Corey and I speak about matters like

01:54:55.040 --> 01:54:58.560
race mixing is not despising people.

01:54:58.560 --> 01:55:02.320
It's that we don't want to create an entire generation of people

01:55:02.320 --> 01:55:06.400
who have that conflict of interest because it's a recipe for war.

01:55:06.640 --> 01:55:10.640
It's the destruction of the American race, of the American white race

01:55:10.720 --> 01:55:14.160
that has been here for 400 years, my family on both sides,

01:55:14.160 --> 01:55:17.440
in the North and the South, equally American.

01:55:17.440 --> 01:55:20.080
And it's also creating people who have these conflicts.

01:55:20.080 --> 01:55:21.840
No one should have to live with that conflict.

01:55:21.840 --> 01:55:23.040
That stinks.

01:55:23.040 --> 01:55:25.360
It's a violation of the fourth commandment.

01:55:25.360 --> 01:55:27.920
I'm using the Lutheran lumbering as we always do.

01:55:27.920 --> 01:55:32.080
You can go to thebookofconquer.org and see the Lutheran numbering for the

01:55:32.400 --> 01:55:33.680
Ten Commandments.

01:55:33.680 --> 01:55:36.960
It's a violation of the fourth commandment for a son or a

01:55:36.960 --> 01:55:42.320
daughter to despise either his mother or his father over the other.

01:55:42.320 --> 01:55:47.600
And something the mixed race kids face is something that every divorced

01:55:47.600 --> 01:55:50.480
kid faces automatically.

01:55:50.480 --> 01:55:54.640
Whenever two parents get divorced, whatever strengths or weaknesses the father and

01:55:54.640 --> 01:55:59.360
the mother had within a unified household suddenly become very stark when

01:55:59.360 --> 01:56:03.200
their two separate households and suddenly the kid maybe he has to

01:56:03.200 --> 01:56:06.800
choose, maybe he doesn't get to choose, but he's gonna prefer.

01:56:06.800 --> 01:56:09.680
You always prefer your dad for some things and your mom for

01:56:09.680 --> 01:56:10.160
other things.

01:56:10.160 --> 01:56:10.720
That's natural.

01:56:10.720 --> 01:56:12.080
But we're all human beings.

01:56:12.080 --> 01:56:13.680
Everyone has strengths and weaknesses.

01:56:13.680 --> 01:56:17.520
When it's under one roof, those preferences can be small and they

01:56:17.520 --> 01:56:20.160
don't have to rise to the level of sin.

01:56:20.160 --> 01:56:24.160
When parents get divorced with kids and those kids suddenly have to

01:56:24.160 --> 01:56:26.800
choose between their parents, between their households.

01:56:26.800 --> 01:56:30.560
It's necessarily sinful for the kids to prefer one over the other,

01:56:30.560 --> 01:56:33.440
because it's always going to lead to some degree of despising.

01:56:33.440 --> 01:56:36.080
It's a terrible position to put the kids in.

01:56:36.080 --> 01:56:40.320
Kids who are products of mixed race marriages already have that baked

01:56:40.320 --> 01:56:41.920
in, even if their parents stay together.

01:56:41.920 --> 01:56:45.520
Even if they have a happy marriage and happy household and everything,

01:56:45.520 --> 01:56:49.120
the fact that one parent is one race and the other is

01:56:49.120 --> 01:56:52.800
the other means that product of that union doesn't have a place,

01:56:52.800 --> 01:56:56.080
is split in two, just like I'm split in two, only much

01:56:56.080 --> 01:57:01.200
more seriously, because my differences internally, or at least social, it's cultural,

01:57:01.200 --> 01:57:02.720
but it's not racial.

01:57:02.720 --> 01:57:05.520
When you add race to the mix, not only is it visibly

01:57:05.600 --> 01:57:09.760
obvious, but it gets that much more difficult because there are qualitative

01:57:09.760 --> 01:57:12.160
differences between all the races.

01:57:12.160 --> 01:57:15.680
And qualitative doesn't mean oh amazing and oh terrible.

01:57:15.680 --> 01:57:18.320
It means people are better at some things than others.

01:57:18.320 --> 01:57:21.600
You know, if one of your parents is from the Horn of

01:57:21.600 --> 01:57:24.640
Africa, maybe you're a great long distance runner.

01:57:24.640 --> 01:57:28.240
Their upsides, not a question to say that their qualitative difference is

01:57:28.320 --> 01:57:30.640
to say is to say somebody stinks.

01:57:30.640 --> 01:57:35.600
But a kid who's faced with having a mixed parentage is faced

01:57:35.600 --> 01:57:38.400
with, well, how do I fit in in the world?

01:57:38.400 --> 01:57:41.360
And that's a position that we don't want anyone to be put

01:57:41.360 --> 01:57:43.760
in. And so the reason that so many of these guys reach

01:57:43.760 --> 01:57:46.800
out to us and ask for advice is that we don't lie

01:57:46.800 --> 01:57:47.840
about this stuff.

01:57:47.840 --> 01:57:50.720
And the advice in the in the counsel we give is always

01:57:50.720 --> 01:57:54.080
not we hate you or you should hate yourself, but basically you

01:57:54.080 --> 01:57:55.440
need to pick a direction.

01:57:55.440 --> 01:57:59.440
If you are fifty percent one thing and fifty percent another, get

01:57:59.440 --> 01:58:01.280
married, pick a direction.

01:58:01.280 --> 01:58:04.800
You know, if you have a black mother and a white father,

01:58:04.800 --> 01:58:08.400
you're in America, I think you should probably marry someone white and

01:58:08.400 --> 01:58:10.480
your kids are going to be three quarters and their kids are

01:58:10.480 --> 01:58:14.400
going to be 87.5%, they're probably going to pass for white.

01:58:14.400 --> 01:58:17.520
And by that point, when they have kids, it's trivia.

01:58:17.520 --> 01:58:20.160
It's an interesting family bit of trivia.

01:58:20.160 --> 01:58:23.280
And you don't have to be, it's not the end of the

01:58:23.280 --> 01:58:25.120
world. It's not the end of your bloodline.

01:58:25.120 --> 01:58:28.400
It's just it's a difficult situation that you're gonna have to spend

01:58:28.400 --> 01:58:30.160
your whole life working through.

01:58:30.160 --> 01:58:32.640
Sometimes that's what conflicts of interest look like.

01:58:32.640 --> 01:58:36.080
It's just a difficult situation that's foisted on people that they have

01:58:36.080 --> 01:58:39.280
to spend their whole lives trying to figure out how to navigate

01:58:39.280 --> 01:58:42.240
it in a way that's not sinful, in a way that is

01:58:42.240 --> 01:58:45.680
gonna have the best outcomes for yourself and your family and your

01:58:45.680 --> 01:58:47.680
own kids down the road.

01:58:47.680 --> 01:58:48.480
It's hard.

01:58:48.800 --> 01:58:50.320
it's all a matter of wisdom.

01:58:50.320 --> 01:58:53.200
It's not necessarily a question of this is sin and that's not

01:58:53.200 --> 01:58:56.400
sin. The sin in that subject comes in because there are people

01:58:56.400 --> 01:58:59.840
who actively want to exterminate whites.

01:58:59.840 --> 01:59:02.400
They want to see no more whites.

01:59:02.400 --> 01:59:06.560
And the one surefire way to do that is to ensure that

01:59:06.560 --> 01:59:09.760
every white person does not marry within their race.

01:59:09.760 --> 01:59:12.000
And I mean that's what it comes down to.

01:59:12.000 --> 01:59:14.720
That's sinful, but the rest of it's just a predicament.

01:59:14.720 --> 01:59:15.840
It's a hard thing.

01:59:15.840 --> 01:59:18.880
And all the people, all the pastors, all these liars telling these

01:59:18.880 --> 01:59:21.360
poor young guys, no, there's no sin.

01:59:21.360 --> 01:59:22.080
There's no problem here.

01:59:22.080 --> 01:59:23.200
Everything's hunky dory.

01:59:23.200 --> 01:59:24.000
You're wonderful.

01:59:24.000 --> 01:59:25.360
It's not a question of wonderful.

01:59:25.360 --> 01:59:27.200
It's a question of being confused.

01:59:27.200 --> 01:59:29.680
It's a question of feeling alienated.

01:59:29.680 --> 01:59:34.640
Jared Taylor felt alienated in Japan when he saw white people probably,

01:59:34.640 --> 01:59:36.800
because he was used to only seeing J Japanese people.

01:59:36.800 --> 01:59:40.080
Imagine that situation where apart from your parents, every single face you

01:59:40.080 --> 01:59:42.960
see is Japanese until you look in the mirror.

01:59:42.960 --> 01:59:47.680
That's a wild degree of alienation that we can't possibly experience here.

01:59:47.680 --> 01:59:51.680
So he has tremendous love for America because he lived there and

01:59:51.680 --> 01:59:55.040
he came back to where his own parents were from.

01:59:55.040 --> 01:59:56.720
He has roots here, he belongs here.

01:59:56.720 --> 02:00:01.360
He's an American, but he's missing something because of his upbringing.

02:00:01.360 --> 02:00:05.040
And he's missing the understanding that he has a conflict of interest

02:00:05.040 --> 02:00:05.600
there because

02:00:06.480 --> 02:00:10.720
his global view of things and his particular affinity for whites, I

02:00:10.720 --> 02:00:13.360
think one of the things he does well is talking in general,

02:00:13.360 --> 02:00:15.680
but he also misses the distinction.

02:00:15.680 --> 02:00:19.120
He never should have said anything nasty about West Virginians or anybody

02:00:19.120 --> 02:00:22.560
else. He could have very easily picked the underclass in New England

02:00:22.560 --> 02:00:24.160
and said exactly the same things.

02:00:24.160 --> 02:00:25.840
But no one ever seems to do that.

02:00:25.840 --> 02:00:29.120
It's always the South, it's always the people that are described as

02:00:29.120 --> 02:00:32.000
trash and garbage in the South to get picked on.

02:00:32.000 --> 02:00:34.960
I take that personally because those are my people.

02:00:34.960 --> 02:00:37.520
And at the same time I want the best for him just

02:00:37.520 --> 02:00:38.720
as he said he did.

02:00:38.720 --> 02:00:41.600
But I'm not gonna air that dirty laundry in public.

02:00:41.600 --> 02:00:43.920
Don't go against the family in public.

02:00:43.920 --> 02:00:45.680
It's just that simple.

02:00:45.680 --> 02:00:50.320
And when people take that seriously, you're gonna stay out of trouble.

02:00:50.320 --> 02:00:52.320
I didn't mean to stir up a bunch of crap about it.

02:00:52.400 --> 02:00:55.360
You only get so much done in 280 characters.

02:00:55.360 --> 02:00:58.880
But the bottom line is that our upbringing shape each of us,

02:00:58.880 --> 02:01:00.400
for better or worse.

02:01:00.400 --> 02:01:04.240
And whatever good things we bring from our childhoods and our experience,

02:01:04.240 --> 02:01:07.120
our lineage, use it for the benefit of others.

02:01:07.120 --> 02:01:07.920
Try to help people out.

02:01:08.000 --> 02:01:10.240
You don't have to be a motivational speaker.

02:01:10.320 --> 02:01:13.040
Hopefully you don't lose an eyeball to PCP.

02:01:13.040 --> 02:01:18.000
But whatever you can share, whether it's good or bad about yourself,

02:01:18.000 --> 02:01:20.000
bring it to the table.

02:01:20.000 --> 02:01:24.240
But don't conceal something that gives you a conflict.

02:01:24.240 --> 02:01:27.600
If you have competing interests, disclose it.

02:01:27.600 --> 02:01:29.600
And it doesn't need to be a shameful thing.

02:01:29.600 --> 02:01:32.400
I was like, look, I talk about the fact that half of

02:01:32.400 --> 02:01:33.600
my family's southern.

02:01:33.600 --> 02:01:35.520
That's a disclosure of a conflict.

02:01:35.520 --> 02:01:38.400
But it's also look, I was raised in the north, but these

02:01:38.400 --> 02:01:39.280
are also my people.

02:01:39.840 --> 02:01:41.200
It's a mixed race marriage.

02:01:41.200 --> 02:01:42.160
It very much is.

02:01:42.160 --> 02:01:45.120
Even though it's the same race, but the cultures are divergent.

02:01:45.120 --> 02:01:46.800
There's no doubt about that.

02:01:46.800 --> 02:01:50.400
I'm empathetic to both, but I only possess one of them, and

02:01:50.400 --> 02:01:54.240
the other one I have an affinity for for historical and family

02:01:54.240 --> 02:01:57.200
reasons, but it's not mine immediately.

02:01:57.200 --> 02:02:00.080
When we recognize these things and we can say them out loud,

02:02:00.080 --> 02:02:02.800
I think it just makes things a whole lot center.

02:02:02.800 --> 02:02:05.280
And if you think, oh well, my mom is from the south,

02:02:05.280 --> 02:02:08.400
so you can't believe anything I say about the south, okay, fine.

02:02:08.400 --> 02:02:11.440
Or the north, like I get it from both directions, so I

02:02:11.440 --> 02:02:16.000
understand. Like I've had people despise me on like not many, but

02:02:16.240 --> 02:02:18.960
it doesn't take anything to set people off on social media to

02:02:18.960 --> 02:02:19.760
dismiss them.

02:02:19.920 --> 02:02:23.600
What's unfortunate is that they're never dismissing them for the right reasons.

02:02:23.600 --> 02:02:27.920
If you think that someone who has both sets of parents going

02:02:27.920 --> 02:02:30.720
back 400 years has nothing to say about the history of the

02:02:30.720 --> 02:02:31.920
country. Okay, fine.

02:02:32.000 --> 02:02:34.800
I'm gonna try to change your mind because it'd be a conflict

02:02:34.800 --> 02:02:36.800
of interest for me to do so.

02:02:36.800 --> 02:02:40.080
To acknowledge these things, to say it out loud, to lay your

02:02:40.080 --> 02:02:42.880
cards face up on the table and say, This is what I'm

02:02:42.880 --> 02:02:43.920
working with.

02:02:43.920 --> 02:02:47.040
Let me tell you what I know and what I've experienced.

02:02:47.040 --> 02:02:49.120
Put the best light on it, that's fine.

02:02:49.120 --> 02:02:50.240
But don't hide it.

02:02:50.240 --> 02:02:51.200
Don't conceal it.

02:02:51.200 --> 02:02:53.120
Don't try to pretend that it's not there.

02:02:53.120 --> 02:02:56.800
That's not it's not honest because everyone else is gonna have to

02:02:56.800 --> 02:02:59.040
work with whatever comes out of your mouth.

02:02:59.040 --> 02:03:01.520
And if all you do is wave your Bible in the air

02:03:01.520 --> 02:03:05.360
and scream about racism or whatever, and you conceal the fact that

02:03:05.360 --> 02:03:10.320
your own family is not the same race as you, you're tricking

02:03:10.320 --> 02:03:11.840
people. That's not fair.

02:03:11.840 --> 02:03:15.360
Forget good or evil or any of the laws or anything else.

02:03:15.360 --> 02:03:18.640
It's not fair to people when you conceal something that's a material

02:03:19.200 --> 02:03:22.320
fact. And as soon as someone says, oh, by the way, he's

02:03:22.320 --> 02:03:24.240
whatever, light bulb comes on.

02:03:24.320 --> 02:03:26.800
Everyone's like, oh yeah, okay, now it makes sense.

02:03:26.800 --> 02:03:28.560
Put that on the table first.

02:03:28.560 --> 02:03:31.760
Everybody listening, everybody talking, put that stuff on the table.

02:03:32.400 --> 02:03:33.920
It's not shameful.

02:03:33.920 --> 02:03:38.560
It's just a question of laying out here's what my interests are.

02:03:38.560 --> 02:03:41.280
I have interests in the north, I have interests in the south,

02:03:41.280 --> 02:03:43.920
I have interests that are English, and I have interests that are

02:03:43.920 --> 02:03:47.840
German, whatever it is, it's okay to say that.

02:03:47.840 --> 02:03:50.560
But then you need to understand that there may be circumstances where

02:03:50.560 --> 02:03:53.200
you have to be excluded from the conversation because of it.

02:03:53.200 --> 02:03:56.720
Just for the conversation, not because you're a terrible human being, but

02:03:56.720 --> 02:04:01.120
because your inherent bias because of one of those things means that

02:04:01.120 --> 02:04:03.520
people need to have a conversation without you.

02:04:03.520 --> 02:04:06.640
And if you trust them to be honest, you're fine leaving the

02:04:06.640 --> 02:04:08.880
room. You're fine not being in the DM group.

02:04:08.880 --> 02:04:10.640
You trust these are good guys too.

02:04:10.640 --> 02:04:13.520
I've said my piece, I can leave, and this is going to

02:04:13.520 --> 02:04:15.680
turn out fine because these are people who are trying to do

02:04:15.680 --> 02:04:16.720
their best to.

02:04:16.720 --> 02:04:20.320
We don't need to horn our way into every conversation and make

02:04:20.320 --> 02:04:21.840
sure that we get our way.

02:04:21.840 --> 02:04:24.560
That's fundamentally what honest communication is.

02:04:24.560 --> 02:04:27.920
Look, here's the best case for this, here the fact, here's my

02:04:27.920 --> 02:04:30.640
argument, I hope it's of some value to you.

02:04:30.640 --> 02:04:33.360
That's the way we approach every one of these episodes, and we

02:04:33.360 --> 02:04:37.440
hope that it's the way people approach a subject of conflicts of

02:04:37.440 --> 02:04:40.720
interest, because it's a real problem and it doesn't need to be.

02:04:40.720 --> 02:04:45.840
With some honesty and some disclosure, these conflicts could be diminished and

02:04:45.840 --> 02:04:47.920
all we could have to worry about is the interests.

02:04:47.920 --> 02:04:49.920
I hope that we can have that in the future, but it's

02:04:49.840 --> 02:04:53.360
gonna take people actually thinking about this and processing it in this

02:04:53.360 --> 02:04:56.000
way and then just being honest and playing with your cards face

02:04:56.160 --> 02:04:56.480
up